First of all its a myth that light tanks perform better in desert.

First lets compare the tanks

LInk for arjun

Al Khalid
Al Khalid

Arjun VS Al Khalid
Maximum Speed: 40 km/h VS(lets assume) 40 KMPH (off Road Speed)

Maximum Range: Un-refuelled range 450 km VS 400 KM

Power to Weight Ratio: 23.93 hp/ton VS 26 hp/ton

Combat Weight: 58.5 tonnes VS 45.5 tons

Crew : 4 VS 3

Ground Pressure: 0.84 kg/cm2 vs (not Avaliable but ite higher than Arjun, Pakistanis tried bringing it down bu rubber pads, but it still remains higher. Thats why no pakistani sites mention this. AK is more likely to sink in sand than Arjun)

(please note that ground pressure of T-90 is 0.87 kg/sq cm and T80-UD is 0.93 kg/cm2. Even if Arjun is heavier, the ground pressure is lesser than lighter tanks)

Gradient: 77º vs 60 % / 40 %


Trench Crossing: 2.43 m vs 2.7 m

Now tell me in terms of these characteristics, which tank will survive desert better? Al- Khalid had advantage in just power to weight area and trench crossing, but this difference in just 3 HP and 3 m. Obviously Arjun is better in Desert survival.

Additional advantage for Arjun is its suspension. "It has a hydro-gas suspension, which is akin to the landing of an aircraft. You get more pressure than when an Airbus lands

It has special filter system that keeps out dust, the tank can operate in the desert. Its cables and connections are protected from dust and it has a provision for deflogging the radiator and heat exchangers. The engine will never be shut down even in the most critical conditions. This addresses the heat transfer phenomenon. The tank, without air-conditioning, can dissipate heat." Arjun's design is modular, including that of the weapon system, turret and the power pack. "You can change the power pack in the field in 45 minutes. Elsewhere, it takes 14 hours,"

Except for some filters Al Khalid dosen't have any of the features.

Undoubtly Arjun is best suited for Desert fighting that a Light Tank like Al khalid.

Now i have taken a lot of data to support my argument. I challange any Pakistani to challange me on basis of data.

BG, lets not go on with a debate in this thread, this thread is an information blog for the T-80UD, and I myself have made a mistake...but for a discussions, you should open a new thread,

Well he asked my opinion. Also there ia a lot of false writeups on net. I just wanted to present facts and fighures.

And What is the crediblity of these facts?. IF there were any truth in them India

would not have purchased T-90 ( foreign currency involved).

They are for deferent purposes. T-90S is a low cost but good tank also MKIzed with French, Indian and may be Israeli inputs. India will induct T-90S along with Arjun and Tank-Ex. For Pakistan she also inducting both AK and T-80UD also AZ, why? T-90S with Shtora-1 EOCMDAS and INVAAR laser guided missile also a good tank.

credibility?
Arjun is from janes thats posted on BR. Other is HIT Pakistan and Pakistani defence specs. T-80ud and T-90 specs are avaliable every where.

T-90s were purchased as a reaction to immedieate war situation. You are aware of this fact or check google. But now India will have Arjun for heavy, T-90's for mid level and Tank-ex for light tank requirements.

T-80 deal was signed in 1995 with all Tanks devlivered by 1999. AK production

started in 2001. So they are not from the same time fram and there is great deal

of commonality between them That Zarrar is low end Tank.

T-90 and Arjun production time frame is similar. So even if Arju is expensive it

involves local currency and provides Standardization on Single type instead of

two.

What kind of reaction was that to War when there are only 124 T-90 even now long

long after war and there is talk about local manufacturing and indigenization. It

looks to me long term strategy.


Army remains sceptical of Arjun tank

Rajat Pandit
150 words
9 August 2004
The Times of India
English


NEW DELHI: The Army may have taken the delivery of the first five "indigenously-developed" Arjun main battle tanks (MBTs) on Saturday but it still remains slightly sceptical about the tank's combat worthiness and operational mobility.

"With its excessive weight and width, the Arjun tank has poor operational mobility. It will not be possible to rapidly move it from one area of operation to another on the existing tank transporters on our rail network," said a senior officer.

At 58.5 tonnes, the Arjun is much heavier than the newly-inducted T-90S Russian MBT, which weighs 46.5 tonnes, and is consequently less manoeuvrable.

"It may prove too heavy for some of our bridges. It's also yet to be fully proven that the recurring problems with its engine and fire control systems have been solved," said an officer.

h177,

I have given specs there. Those are credible specs from renouned sources. Now i don't want to end up in an mindless discussion with you. You want to take that or leave it. I am not going reason to you why In purchased t-90 or what this Moron Rajat Pandit said. There is suitable analysis in proton river on rajat pandits comments. He is a moron and will remain a moron. The weight aspect of Arjun has been covered in that comparision post. If you are smart enough you can understand the issue based on specs or else you can live in your disillusionment world.

You can draw what conclusions you want. Let me dovote time for more understanding posters.

Pkaistan could buy more T-80 why gone for AK? India Army want a combination of deferent type tanks.

'Arjun' an excellent tank: Vij



"Faster it is done, better it is", he said adding much depended on the accelerated production of more Arjun tanks.

Vij said the five Arjun tanks, now handed over to the Indian Army, would soon have a 'user field trials'. In terms of cost, Arjun was slightly more than the T-90, rolled out early this year from HVF, here. The Army would have a judicious mix of T-72, T-90 and Arjun Tanks, he said.

The Chief of Army Staff said 'we cannot develop such an advanced weapon system without the help and cooperation of the defence forces'.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040808/main7.htm
General Vij, in his short speech, hoped that 124 MBT Arjun ordered by the Indian Army would be ready by mid-2007.

He said, “These five tanks will be put to an accelerated trial and once they are over orders will be forthcoming. If the MBT Arjun proves it battle worthiness it will be one of the best in the world.”

MBT Arjun is equipped with an accurate and fast target — acquisition capability during day and night and can destroy all possible enemy armour at maximum battle ranges.

Other than its main armament, which can defeat any contemporary armour used in tanks, it also has two machine guns – one for ground role and another for anti-aircraft role.

The tank can be operated in the mountainous region and can also wade through a depth of water up to 2.15 metres.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rajat Pandit and Rahul Bedi these two are well known moron. Weight never be a problem if a vehicle have sufficient power. Primary Arjuns had 1400 HP engines (prototype) but now it has 1500 HP engines. Which give it high power-to-weight ratio (25.64 HP/ton).


Mobility of Arjun

Low ground pressure, high power-to-weight ratio and new design concepts in transmission suspension and
running gear result in highly mobile and agile weapon platform.

The remarkable mobility of MBT which also adds to its protection is the result of:


*High performance engine
*Robust and effective transmission system particularly flexible hydropneumatic suspension .
*Optimized running gear with its high shock energy absorption.

Due to the high power-to-weight ratio and low specific ground pressure, MBT is fast, highly manoeuvrable and extremely mobile to cross the most difficult terrain with ease. High acceleration rapid braking capabilities with excellent steering characteristics make MBT agile in the battlefield. Adequate fuel storage capacity and relatively low fuel consumption allow for an optimal operational range.

An important criterion for the mobility of any AFV is the effective performance of the driver. Excellent vision systems both for day and night provide most effective means of observation in all battlefield conditions. The need to keep the crew's fatigue including that of driver at the minimum level over long periods of continuous operation, have been taken care of. (DRDO website)

Date Posted: 17-Aug-2004


JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - AUGUST 25, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indian Army receives first Arjun tanks
RAHUL BEDI JDW Correspondent
New Delhi

The Indian Army took delivery of five locally designed and built Arjun main battle tanks (MBTs) on 6 August: the first batch of 124 sanctioned to be built seven years ago.

Built by the heavy vehicles factory (HVF) at Avadi in southern India, the tanks were delivered more than three decades after the MBT project was launched to reduce dependence on imports.

Senior defence officials said another 10 Arjuns would be completed by March 2005 and the remaining MBTs in the following two years with support from the Medak Ordnance Factory in neighbouring Andhra Pradesh state.

The tanks will be inducted into the 43rd Armoured Regiment which will put the Arjun through additional operational trials under combat conditions in the western Rajasthan's desert region.

Despite government claims that this moves the country closer to defence manufacturing independence, more than half of the Arjun's components, including its German MTU 838 Ka-510 1,400hp diesel engine, gearbox, fire-control system and gun control system, are imported.

Defence sources said this significantly increased the unit price to between Rs150-Rs160 million ($33million-$33.5 million). India's Defence Research Development Organisation said it hopes to reduce Arjun's import dependency to around 20% but armoured corps officers said this would be "near impossible" to achieve.

Chief of Army Gen Nirmal Vij declared that although the Arjun cost more than the Russian T-90S MBT - of which India acquired 310 three years ago for around $700 million and will also soon begin building under licence at the HVF - the army would continue to buy the locally designed MBT to support the indigenisation process.

Army sources said the Arjun's endurance was 160km, significantly less than the average 300km of most other MBTs; its engine overheated in the desert regions; and it experienced frequent transmission failure during user trials.

The Arjun's excessive weight had also compromised its operational efficiency as it would require special rail wagons to transport it and the majority of bridges in the northern Punjab plains, where the MBT was likely to be deployed, will also need expensive reinforcment, said the army sources.

Arjun is a failure

HARI,

Tajmahal has already commented on Rahul Bedi , Rajat Pandit.. There are more morons like Sam Rajappa....... etc. Its their fortune they like in democratic India.

so u say it has a endurance range of more than 160 km,its engine does not over heated, it dont have a transmission problem , it dont have a transportation problem i dont think so . India have to solve all these problems than they called arjun a succsses. & i think janes is a very respectable source & that person is working for janes

Yes Janes and Times of India both are very respectable source but not these two (Rahul Bedi , Rajat Pandit).

DRDO solvedd the problems with engine heating and Arjun's has 450km cruising range.

It was expected that it will have arange of 450km ,but it dont have a range of 450 km its range is only 160km

Fine Arjun is the worst topic, ok? Topic closed. Bye Bye

so the AK has a better weight-to-power ratio??

yes the AL-Khalids have a higher power to weight ratio.
as far as the T-90S is concerned .It was not only a stop-gap measure when the T-80UD was causing panic but also now since the logistics are in place for the T-90 since it is an extended family of the T-72 it would make sense to buy more of them .I think there was an option to go in for some 300 more but no reports yet.

Sure the Arjun has problem hell everyone will admit to it.Look at the developmental issues of every MBT .the fact is the british army or the amercian army or any other .took the tank in and user-inputs were vital in their improvement.
in the arjun's case the Tanks first model was not even accepted and was totally improved which is what is now being inducted.Mk1
later models should be better.
every tank has its fair share of problem .all said and done the Arjun is a decent tank with "better armour" than any tank in the region due to shere weight as for FCS the problem has been solved with israeli help.
as for firepower there are the articles posted by brute Gorilla.

As far as logistics are concerned surely they are already in place or are in the later stages.for.eg the rail transporters etc.or else the 124 or so would never have been ordered with some 30 odd already in service.

IMHO,

One of the most important facrors that emerge in long distance desert caimpaign would be the crew comfort and safety. They should be in fit position to fight and less fatigued. Arjun has a spacious interior (carries crew od 4, one can rest at a time), airconditioned (engines don't have to shut down), egronomically designed, pneumatic suspension, modular design enabling quick change of powerpack, a real tough armour, computer controlled aiming, a good corousal and defence systems like LAHAT. These are the plus points when Arjun is crossing the desert and goes for action. Surprisingly the pressure per square centimeter, Arjun excerts is 0.84 kg/cm2 which is even lower than 0.866 kg/cm of T-72 light tank. A rifled gun.

http://www.ciar.org/ttk/mbt/06.al-khalid.html

Closeup on Pakistan's Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar MBT

I have paid a lot of attention to Pakistan's Al-Khalid MBT. It just strikes me as a particularly likable tank. Everyone I know tends to think of Pakistan (if they think of Pakistan at all) as a third-world backwater, and yet they have managed (with a lot of help from China) to come out with a highly functional, very modern, rather innovative main battle tank, and I find that utterly delightful. Al-Khalid is basically a Chinese Type-90-II (China's standard export model), with imported Ukrainian engine (and a few other components), and the rest manufactured indigenously, with various Pakistani modifications and enhancements. It is a nimble tank with a lot of firepower, an autoloader, and a modern firecontrol system. Kudos to Pakistan!

or...

Pakistani analyst compares Al-Khalid tank with India's Arjun
SAP20010801000053 Islamabad The Nation (Lahore Edition) (Internet Version-WWW) in English 01 Aug 01
[Article by Brigadier ® A. R. Siddiqi: "HIT: rebuild to manufacture"]

In the defence establishment itself, the development of heavy industry has created perhaps the country's largest pool of trained engineers, scientists and technicians together with the many down-stream benefits in terms of higher education, technical know-how, better job opportunities etc. This was confirmed for the umpteenth time during a recent visit to the giant tank rebuild and manufacture complex Taxila.

Sitting in the midst of the barren rocky hills around, the site enjoys natural protective cover. The key-note of HIT's (Heavy Industries Taxila, formerly known as Heavy Rebuild Factory) fresh 'manifesto' is: 'From rebuild to manufacture' and, through progressive manufacture, achieve a high degree of perfection and sophistication with each new model. The first uprated model to roll off the production line was P-85 followed by P-90 (MBT-2000) Khalid named after the famed Islamic conqueror -- Khalid bin Walid. HITs latest gift to the nation is the modern Main Battle Tank Al-Khalid-2000 made in Pakistan in joint venture with the People Republic of China. The MBT a 46-tonne monster tolled with almost 85 percent of indigenous components marks Pakistan's transition from the painstaking era of re-build into challenging field of creative manufacture.

Al-Khalid MBT (Main Battle Tank) marks the consummation of Project P.711 launched in the early 80s. The first batch of 15 should be inducted into armoured formations by about the month's end or early next month. Project P.711 purported to rebuild the Chinese T-59 inducted into the armoured units after the 1965 war as their main workhorse. It was expanded and re-named P.711-K (K in Chinese signifies extension), in order to (a) raise the deletion (elimination of imported components) rate to 85 percent and (b) to establish the production base for the manufacture of whole MBTs. Once the production line got underway no less than 100 tanks (roughly one every fourth day) were rolling off to give us a measure of self-reliance which, at one time, had been almost undreamt of. After completing the first phase of P-711-K upgradation in 1997, the second phase of upgradation was launched in 1998 to give a 'technological quantum leap' to the old T-59. The new modernised tank was named Al-Zarrar. Al Zarrar mounts a 125 MM smooth bore gun; 700 HP engine; explosive reactor armour, compatible transmission, suspension and gun fire control systems.

The series-produced MBTs are as much a marvel of joint Sino-Pakistan venture as of sheer pragmatism unbiased by misplaced national pride and inflated individual egotism. This was a lesson learnt from India's wild goose chase of reliable MBT ever since 1974 when the project was first sanctioned. Depending overly on their own advanced industrial and defence production base, Indian scientists and engineers undertook to do it themselves. After a prolonged series of prototypes and pre-production models, they managed to produce an over 60-tonne monster, named Arjun after the mythical hero of Mahabharata -- the great Hindu epic.

From Indian source reports, it appears the monster is more of a heavy weight than a athlete, more of flab than fire and movement. It mounts a 120 mm rifled gun deadly in lethal power but deficient in accuracy. Its performance in various field trials was reported anything but satisfactory. In the last known trial in March 1990, the Indian army Chief General V. N. Sharma (retired July 1, 1990) was "quite wild" when out of the five rounds fired only three hit the 5x5 metre target. No hit was scored on the moving target. The actual performance stood in sharp contrast to the one claimed by the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) that the gun would hit a target measuring 60x60 cms at a distance of 2000 meters. In another trial earlier in February, only four out of five rounds hit a target of 5x5 meters (a tank is usually only two meters high) at 1100 meters.

Meant to be completely swadeshi or indigenous, Arjun's sub-systems are all imported. Except for the hull and the turret, the imported components include practically every major item like engine, transmission, tracks, suspension, gun and fire control assemblies. Their integration according to Indian experts "leaves" much to be desired. For example, the auxiliary power unit imported from France would not perfectly fit into the tank. Similarly the 'seals' which according to general staff quality requirements (GSQR) were required to withstand temperatures of up to 150 degrees centigrade barely measured up to 120 degree ©. These seals were imported from Germany. Thus a French engine with German seals fitted into an Indian hull and a turret mounting a not too accurate 120 mm gun made quite a hotchpotch of Arjun.

So much for the user and his problems. Finance men have not been too happy either, for all the time and cost incurred. Sanctioned at a cost of Rs 15 crore a copy, it touched the Rs 28 crore figure in 1987 registering another 10-15 percent annual escalation ever since. Both the Controller and Auditor General (CAG) and the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) had been critical of the project as much for the rising cost as for the endless delays. According to the Minister of State Dr Raja Rammana, bulk production of the MBT was to start earlier than 1992. It is gratifying that Pakistani experts learnt from the Indian example -- an over-rated view of available national resource and know-how, could land even the best professionals in a mess. This is the age of globalisation of technology and of its shared fruits. India failed and paid unduly, largely avoidable, heavy price for trying to do it all by itself in the vain hope of doing it better than all others. It sought to play the pathfinder on a beaten track where even a technological breakthrough would have meant little.

Known less for gloss and sophistication, much of the Chinese hardware is ungrudgingly recognised for its war-fighting utility. The Chinese tend to view weapons as implements of war rather than parade ground accoutrement. A tank which is a mobile firing platform, is known for 3 things (i) maneuverability (ii) hit probability and (iii) protection. In the Chinese order of priority protection comes last. It should in any case flow less from the thickness of the armour and more from the hit probability. Enemy killed first is the best guarantee against being killed. Too much weight causes problems of transportation and maneuverability. In the T series converted to P series, maximum effort has gone into getting the machine as souped-up as possible mainly by cutting down on weight. Just compare the 60 tonnes of Arjun with the contemplated 44 tonnes (maximum) of the Al-Khalid-2000.

Some of Al-Khalid's main features are: 125 mm smooth bore, chrome plated gun, auto-loader; 1200 HP powerpack; maximum speed 65 km per hour; image stabilisation; lazer range finder; panasonic for commander sight and so on. It mounts Ukrainian engine replaceable by British and French engines according to the importing country's specifications and requirements.

HIT's management had on hand 13 different projects concurrently, as many as under the 'T' (China) and 'N' (US) series. Starting from P.711 (rebuild of T-59) the project moved on to the manufacture stage, developing P-70 MBT under P-711-K. The peak of P-711K had been the manufacture of MBT-2000 (P-90) Khalid. P-87 project included the rebuild/manufacture of all the tracked vehicles in the M Series. M-113 armoured personnel carriers, M-109 and M-110 self-propelled (SP) artillery vehicles and M-88A1 armoured recovery vehicles (ARVs). Under P-811, licensed production of the upgraded M-113 A1 M-113A2 APCs was undertaken. In addition to the above mentioned four major projects the remaining nine projects are as follows: P 882 Hull-manufacture; P 883 Turret manufacture; P 884 Engine manufacture; P 885 Gun manufacture; P 886 Flexible machinery; (Basic manufacturing facility) P 891 Management and Information System (MIS). A W653 ARV manufacture and Oerlikon (AK AK) Austrian Gun upgradation. P 90 (MBT-2000) Khalid.

Lt-Gen Hamid Javaid, HIT's Director-General, his men and officers together with the experts of the North China Industrial Company are to be congratulated for their dedication and efficiency. The Indian planned bogged down due to an impractical and inflated vision whereas Pakistan succeeded because of proceeding systematically and progressively from rebuild-to-manufacture to achieve much more in much less time and at a lesser cost.

Nevertheless, HIT's builders should see to it that whereas joint ventures help develop hardware at a lesser cost, in time and money, it is no substitute for indigenous R & D and pursuit of pure science. Technology is the child of science and not vice versa. Even reverse and imitative engineering must have broad scientific base. Unfortunately, however, pure science in Pakistan remains incredibly poor. It's time our universities and centres of excellence be streamlined to match our civil military engineering colleges and polytechnics.

Eminent Indian columnist, Prem Shankar Jha in his column in the Hindustan Times (August 13, 1999) had been bitterly critical of the Defence Research and Development Organisation and high-profile chief Dr Abdul Kalam. 'After 16 years of research, the DRDO has produced a lemon', he wrote and went on to describe it a 'monumental waste of energy.'

[Description of Source: Islamabad The Nation (Lahore Edition) in English -- Independent daily, member of the Nawa-i-Waqt group]

Check this picture.
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/hit/images/alkhalidtank.jpg

Most people always claim the arjun ground pressure was lower, why? It because the arjun dimension was much larger. To reduce the ground pressure for the 60 tonnes arjun compare to the 45 tonnes t-72, everyone who know physics or math can imagine how much larger the arjun compare to t-72?

Heavy don't mean it armour will be better, different alloy or composite material have different penetration depth. Thicker armour also don't mean it better, it need very good metallurlogy knowledge!

A pakistani analyst talking about Indian sources, Dosen't mention which. Obviously. Also this is an old report. Its not 60 tonnes, the gun and controls are excelent.

Also this analyst talks of Chinese stuff of war fighting capabilites which even Pakistan dosen't believe. They just take shell and buy rest from west.

Consider whats indigenious in Al Khalid.Gun is imported from china. Hull is imported from Ukrain. Gear box and Powerpack is imported ukrain/germany. Courousel is from china. So what have Pakistani engineers achieved? Even the design is failed Chinese design, refined by Ukrain.

Now the tank comes in confused power pack. sometimes they say is Ukranian , sometimes German. Still not decided. Production was supposed to hve started years before, still Pakistan dosen't have it in sufficient numbers (50 or so?).

And this guy calls hiself analyst

On the other hand each and every system used in Arjun can be forund over net. That shows the confidence of Indian product. Check even HIT site no confidence in quoting the specs. Check DRDO's confidence

Heavy Industries Taxila started production of Al-Khalid in November 2000. The Chinese ground army has not made any purchase orders and will not use the same tank when it does decide to buy a next-generation armored vehicle. As of early 2002 Pakistan had about twenty Al-Khalid tanks in service

It prooves it crappy even by crappy Chinese requirements.

AL Khalid Engine troubles
Ukraine to boost - Pak. armour power.

By Vladimir Radyuhin.
494 words
20 February 2002
Pakistan has been developing the Al Khalid MBT with China's help since 1988, but the project ran into numerous problems, especially with its power pack, until Ukraine came up with its latest 1200-hp diesel engine.
If Ukraine helps Pakistan sort out other problems with Al Khalid, the new MBT can be quite a challenge for the T-90 MBT that India has just purchased from Russia, the Russian expert said.

So Al Khalid has other problems too What are those?

The Khalid MBT (120mm) four-phase programme appears successful, if slow. Its measured pace results from a combination of policy, and non-availability of systems and sub-systems from Western nations. The power pack (UK Challenger) and transmission (French Leclerc) were deemed satisfactory, but the outcome of negotiations on long-term development is unknown as there is pressure within the British government to cease defence co-operation with Pakistan. .

Al Khalid dosen't have good power pack. They had to settle for Ukranian powerpacks.

Now they have again got german power packs. Why?

Little on problems of other pakistani tanks : The introduction of newer and rebuilt tanks has taken pressure off the Corps of Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, which was having difficulty maintaining older equipment for front-line use.

Arjun's Dimensions (DRDO webite)
Overall length {with gun forward) 10.638 m
Overall height {with gun rear) 9.546 m
Overall height {with AD gun mount) 3.03 m(Turret roof: 2.32 m)
Overall width 3.864 m
Combat weight 58.5 tons

T-72 (FAS)
Combat Weight (mt) 44.5
Chassis Length Overall (m) 6.91
Height Overall (m) 2.19
Width Overall (m) 3.58
Ground Pressure (kg/cm 2 ) 0.90




As for armour, Arjun's electronics could be inferior to new western tanks but not armour. Though India recieved Israeli help for some electronics.

When the Army wanted us to design a tank comparable with those in the United States, Germany and France, we took it up as a challenge. We had little experience then... Arjun encompasses the most beautiful technologies including the best in armour." Dr. Arunachalam called the Arjun a "fantastic" machine, describing it as a complex engineering system with moving parts. He said: "We have come a long way. We have arrived. It has not been easy. I am proud to be associated with this. Its armour is unbeatable. A tank is determined by its mobility, fire-power and protection. Arjun is unbeatable in all the three."

Arjun's armour, called Kanchan, is indigenously designed and produced. It is made of composite steel, titanium and ceramic embedded together.

. "It has a hydro-gas suspension, which is akin to the landing of an aircraft. You get more pressure than when an Airbus lands," Dr. Natarajan said. The hydro-gas suspension provides excellent riding comfort to the crew, and has been designed taking into account the diverse terrain on which the tank will have to traverse. Its mobility is marked by fast acceleration and deceleration and it has an excellent braking system. Its rifled 120-mm gun, together with the super velocity fin stabilised armour piercing discarding sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition, can pierce the armour of enemy tanks. Its secondary weapons are a 7.62-mm machine gun and a 12.7-mm anti-aircraft gun. The tank's superior fire-power is based on a computer-controlled system, by which it can engage targets accurately and quickly. It can engage targets on the move and its first hit probability is high. A thermal imaging system enables it to see targets even in pitch darkness.
With the help of a special filter system that keeps out dust, the tank can operate in the desert. Its cables and connections are protected from dust and it has a provision for deflogging the radiator and heat exchangers. Dr. Natarajan said: "The engine will never be shut down even in the most critical conditions. This addresses the heat transfer phenomenon... The tank, without air-conditioning, can dissipate heat." Arjun's design is modular, including that of the weapon system, turret and the power pack. "You can change the power pack in the field in 45 minutes. Elsewhere, it takes 14 hours," Dr. Natarajan said.


From DRDO website,

Protection

All round protection from anti-tank ammunition is achieved by t~e newly developed KANCHAN armour to a degree much higher than available in present generation tanks. The high degree of immunity is achieved by.

The computerised design and simulation
A fabricated turret housing lightweight compact KANCHAN armour
Careful dimensioning of wall through optimal slopes and angles
A low silhouette

ground pressure is low because of the larger width and wider tracks. Combat weight is 58.5 tonnes and not 60 tonnes. The weight increases as there are more features. And metaullergy? This Tank armour is a combination of metal, ceramics and composites.

About your mathematics skills, i don't want to talk about. Ask your teacher.

The best armour in India only or in the world?

LOL!

I guess they are talking about all tanks.

My math skill? I'm sure i'm better than you!

You Guess? That a good start...

Composite Armour

Chobham sandwiches a layer of ceramic between two plates of steel armor, which was shown to dramatically increase the resistance to high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds. Chobham was such an improvement that it was soon copied on the new US M1 Abrams main battle tank as well (although there it is referred to as Special Armor). It is the fabrication of the ceramic in large tiles that gives the Challenger and Abrams their "slab sided" look. Newer versions of Chobham include open spaces, depleted uranium and other layers in addition to the original steel/ceramic layering. The uranium layers are included primarily to increase the total mass of metal while not being larger physically.

Reactive armor or explosive reactive armour (ERA), is a type of armour used primarily on tanks to lessen the damage from explosions caused from missile warheads, exploding shellss, grenades, or dropped bombs. Modern ERA such as the Russian Kontakt-5 is made up of "bricks" or "tiles" of explosive sandwiched between two metal plates. The plates are arranged in such a way as to move sideways rapidly when the explosive detonates. According to the designers, this will force an incoming KE-penetrator or shaped charge jet to cut through more armour than the thickness of the plating itself, since "new" plating is constantly fed into the penetrating body. A KE-penetrator will also be subjected to powerful sideways forces, which might be large enough to cut the rod into two or more pieces. This would significantly reduce the penetrating capabilities of the penetrator, since the penetrating force will be dissipated over a larger volume of armour.


Arjun's armour, called Kanchan, is indigenously designed and produced. It is made of composite steel, titanium and ceramic embedded together. Its a composite laminate armour. It defends against all known Kinetic Energy and chemicak peneterators.

let your superior mathematicaly genious mind decide.

How well this kanchan perform again APFSDS and HEAT?

Give me some source not from Indian website please...

u silly black ape, the Article is outdated, THE Pak army will be reciving 44 AL Khalids with increased battle survivability and protection as well as Data link capability

[QUOTE][COLOR=red]Islamabad—The second batch of 44 Al-Khalid MBT and equal number of Al-Zarrar tanks will be handed over to Pakistan Army in the second week of September, well placed defence sources told Pakistan Observer. Besides handing over of two batches of Tanks, Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) is also proud of handing over of a larger number of APCs (Armoured Personnel Carrier) to various formations of Pakistan Army. These APCs amongst others include 250 Al-Talha [/COLOR]APC s for troops transportation. Vice Chief of Army Staff General Mohammad Yousaf will hand over 44 Al-Khalids to the Guides Cavalry as his last prestigious and memorable engagement before his retirement in October. Guides Cavalry, one of the oldest, has a strong heritage and has produced many Chiefs for Pakistan Army. The first batch of Al-Khalid was handed over to 31st Cavalry.

The new batch of Al-Khalids is an improved version of the previous batch with a number of modifications mostly related to the greater survivability of the machine in the battle ground. The other vital feature of the upgraded Al-Khalid is Data-Link systems which allow the tanks to exchange data with each other and with the Command Center. These upgradations have been conducted by the HIT keeping in view the modern day war strategies. Al-Khalid is powered with a Ukrainian 6TDF diesel engine, has a 125 mm smooth bore gun and auto-loader coupled with a Western Fire Control System.
There are however some reports which strongly suggest that the new Batch of Al-Khalid has been produced on the prototype IV which was intended for export market. Saudi Arabia has emerged as biggest customer for this type of Al-Khalid and it is believed that a few pieces will soon be dispatched to Saudi Arabia for final trials.

The export version has been designed with western 120mm gun and Fire Control System. It is also fitted with a 1200hp German MTU-871/ TCM AVDs-1790 diesel engine coupled with an LSG-3000 transmission. Al-Khalid is also equipped with ERA (Explosive Reactive Armour) to its hull and turret for improved battlefield survivability. ERA has been developed by NDC for HIT.

The Tank is also equipped with Crew Bay Explosion Detection and Suppression System to lend confidence to the crew in the battlefield. Engine Compartment Fire Detection and Extinguishing System makes Al-Khalid free of any possible engine fire caused by fuel leaks or overheating of the engine.

This system takes just few seconds to suppress the fire and temperature detection is rapid. Induction of new batch of Al-Khalid will certainly be an added jewel for Pakistan Army which remains under pressure due to its aging mechanized assets.

Sources said that a batch of Al-Zarrar will also be handed over to Pakistan Army in September. Al-Zarrar is upgraded version of T-59 and in last 12 years the tank has gone through three major upgradations.

It is believed that Al-Zarrar is now equipped with 730HP Engine and improved transmission, 125 smooth bore gun, semi automatic loading system, image stabilized fire control, thermal imager and improved gun control system, improved suspension and enhanced armour protection with explosive reactive armour. Sources said that a large number of APCs will also be handed over to various units and formations of Pakistan Army very soon. These APCs are equipped with anti-tank guided missiles. These also include Air Defence and Command vehicles.[QUOTE]

Kanchan was highly secretive project. Any details about it are not available. Scientists (developers) only from DRDO know about. And you want source from foreign website? About 'Kanchan', Indian websites are the best source, as they know about it. lol


IA using Arjun's chassis for many projects for example Bhim, Tank-Ex.

Arjun chassis for tank-ex? not the turret?

About the Kanchan, if so secretive how they can claim it the best armour?
That why i want foreign website!

I think that it is silly to compare AK v. Arjun. With the price of Arjun and weight, it should be equal to at least 3 AKs to make it a worthwhile investment. Therein lies the rub. The beast is economically not feasable. That is its failure. Its just to expensive to fulfill the IA's number requirements.

As for the heavy, medium and light tank requirement BS, that concept was discarded after WW2 when most modern armies decided to only have one-class - the Main Battle Tank or MBT.

IA and PA have these classifcations because they cannot afford to get rid of the 50s crap that is still in their inventory.

@ guys who r degrading AK
r u giys sure about the info availaible on the net.do the military services reveal the special capabilities of their combat machiunes??act wise for gods sake.

AK are doing very well in PAK with thier number more then 90 after that batch is handed over to PA. So don't be jealous because they should not have started Serial Production if Tank was not good enough and they have not even ordered more T 80UD after looking at AK and its performance and 85% of AK is made in Pakistan. Bigger the Arjun is good for AK so it can target it more often.

USAM...I thought PA got 225 T-84 Tanks from Ukraine some time ago.

Indian armed forces are freakingly choosy.....they give hard time to even established world class suppliers (like Sukhoi (30-MKI deal), Denel/Soltom 155mm artillery deal) leave aside a new kid in the block like DRDO.

In what stage is the UAE/SAUDI ? deal with Pakistan for your Al-Khalid tanks ?

Somebody was claiming over the wall success.I would like to know in what stage the deal is.Has it beeen rejected ?

[QUOTE][quote=FASAL XJ,Aug 23 2004, 04:52 AM]
u silly black ape, the Article is outdated, THE Pak army will be reciving 44 AL Khalids with increased battle survivability and protection as well as Data link capability

[QUOTE][COLOR=red]Islamabad—The second batch of 44 Al-Khalid MBT and equal number of Al-Zarrar tanks will be handed over to Pakistan Army in the second week of September, well placed defence sources told Pakistan Observer. .... Vice Chief of Army Staff

[size=7]The new batch of Al-Khalids is an improved version of the previous batch with a number of modifications mostly related to the greater survivability of the machine in the battle ground. The other vital feature of the upgraded Al-Khalid is Data-Link systems which allow the tanks to exchange data with each other and with the Command Center. These upgradations have been conducted by the HIT keeping in view the modern day war strategies. Al-Khalid is powered with a Ukrainian 6TDF diesel engine, has a 125 mm smooth bore gun and auto-loader coupled with a Western Fire Control System.
There are however some reports which strongly suggest that the new Batch of Al-Khalid has been produced on the prototype IV which was intended for export market. Saudi Arabia has emerged as biggest customer for this type of Al-Khalid and it is believed that a few pieces will soon be dispatched to Saudi Arabia for final trials.

The export version has been designed with western 120mm gun and Fire Control System. It is also fitted with a 1200hp German MTU-871/ TCM AVDs-1790 diesel engine coupled with an LSG-3000 transmission. Al-Khalid is also equipped with ERA (Explosive Reactive Armour) to its hull and turret for improved battlefield survivability. ERA has been developed by NDC for HIT.

The Tank is also equipped with Crew Bay Explosion Detection and Suppression System to lend confidence to the crew in the battlefield. Engine Compartment Fire Detection and Extinguishing System makes Al-Khalid free of any possible engine fire caused by fuel leaks or overheating of the engine.

This system takes just few seconds to suppress the fire and temperature detection is rapid. Induction of new batch of Al-Khalid will certainly be an added jewel for Pakistan Army which remains under pressure due to its aging mechanized assets.

.............................very soon. These APCs are equipped with anti-tank guided missiles. These also include Air Defence and Command vehicles.[QUOTE]
[right][snapback]509874[/snapback][/right]
[/quote][/QUOTE]

More crap. Standard features like fire detection, data link are praised as big thing. And previously called best tank didn't have fire detection system


[QUOTE]Engine Compartment Fire Detection and Extinguishing System makes Al-Khalid free of any possible engine fire caused by fuel leaks or overheating of the engine.[/QUOTE]

that means Al Khalid had engine over heating problem

Can you say which one is new? And Arjun dont have these systems? Data link? fire and temperature detection ?

I dont understand why you posted this. BTW most of the tanks in the world have these features.

The saga and despair in making of Al Khalid Tank

Globalsecurity
Global Security
Pakistan Link
Article by Brigadier ® A. R. Siddiqi: "HIT: rebuild to manufacture
Global Security
Engine Problems reported
pakistan observer
Royal Courts of Justice, London

Pakistan's development of the Al Khalid began in 1988, and in January 1990 an agreement was reached with China to jointly design, develop and manufacture system. The design is an upgrade from the originaly failed T902M (also called MBT-2000 ) and work had been going on at China's NORINCO for some years. The Type 90 is an outgrowth of the Type 85 MBT design a varient of Soviet T-72. The initial Type 90 apparently did not meet the PLA's performance expectations during trials in China, and subsequently a major effort was initiated to improve the design, though neither designs have ever been fielded. Another failed attemt was launched called T-90-II. The Chinese ground army has not made any purchase orders and will not use the same tank when it does decide to buy a next-generation armored vehicle. Hence Type 90-II is also known as the MBT 2000 Pakistan is licenced to produce the Type 90-II under a contract signed in May 1990. Initial prototypes were produced in China and fielded for trials in August 1991.

This failed out dtaed tank was called Al Khalid.

The Al Khalid project ran into numerous problems, especially with its Chinese power pack. The western powerplants were very cosltly for cash strapped Pakistan and technology denials. Pakistan was finally forced to settle for Ukraine 1200-hp diesel engine. As revealed in latest press release from Pakistani sources, the engines overheated and caught fire. But the other problems remain. Since Pakistani and Chinese sources have not revealed what problems did the failed tank T-90-II had. Al Khalid naturally inherited same problems. If the problems were overcome Chinese army might have been interested in this too.

In 2003 Another set back occured. In addition to the tank structural, mechanical and performance problems, the corruption in the procurement section led to a case in Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London WC2 A 2LL,
February 14 2003. There were fradulent deals. Powerpack and Hull arrival from Ukrain suffered another set back.

The initial AL Khalid was a very basic tank. The crew confidence in the tank was low because of engine fires and other problems

In August 2004 it was reported by Pakistani sources that the tank is now equipped with Crew Bay Explosion Detection and Suppression System to lend confidence to the crew in the battlefield. Engine Compartment Fire Detection and Extinguishing System makes Al-Khalid free of any possible engine fire caused by fuel leaks or overheating of the engine.

The problem is the engines are still catching fires. Pakistan has to still a long way to go to find the solutions for the major problems faced by Al Khalid tank.

According to a 2001 report, Pakistan planned to add another 300 indigenous Al-Khalid tanks to its armoured corps by 2007. Since 1991 prototype till 2004, there are no more than 100 tanks produced.

Citing the religious closeness to some Islamic countries Pakistan has managed show some demonstrations. As per latest report pakistan has used german engines in Al Khalid for demondtration purposes. The inference is that the much hyped Ukranian engine are not upto the mark.

Contrary to the claim the indegenious content in Al khalid is dismally low. Al Khalid gun and acessoriesis imported from china. Hull, Gear box and Powerpack is imported Ukrain. It also has some western equipment.

As per an Pakistani analyst, The Al-Khalid, at 47 tons, is probably a decent tank for the Punjabi battlefield. General Musharraf claims that its 125-millimetre gun and fire control system are among the best in the world, but that may be just puffery.

What a BS. The german engine is used for export only as ukrain does not want al-khalid to compete with t-84. please put your fact straight. AL-Khalid is a very good tank from any aspect. It's research is paying off now interms of new APc's and al-zarrar. And that is the fact. The same coudl be said about india as the 30 years of research for arjun is paying off now in terms of arjun tank. But unlike alzarray and nuw pakistan based and design apc's and aifv's, inian tank-ex is still a prototype and god knows when it will be inducted. Noe till you have a proof of tank-ex induction do not put any claims and statements. Arjun is not a bad tank but do not match up to th eindian army requirements. COntarary al-khalid not even macth it exceeds the reuirements of pakistn army and other armies of the world. I would not be surprise it alkahalid picks up quite a few orders from other countries. It is teh fact that indina army has rejected arjun so many times that even indian press has lost the count. arjun has gone through so many pre production varients that only drdo might know exactly what number of theis varient is.

the early version had a shit load of problems...



all these problems were solved... fact is that the Pak armed forces are inducting the khalid in large numbers... I know that people are very very satisfied with its performance...



what's going on with arjun btw...

enough of this Juvenile Nonsense about Arjun still being a Failure. Contrary to the Honorable Bedi's Comment on the Arjuns Engine Problems they have been Solved and the Army has indeed passed the Arjun on the Problems. Fact is if they hadnt the Army wouldnt have Accepted them. They have done it before with various other equipment coming out of DRDO . Also For the last time THE ARJUNS CANNOT BE THE MAINSTAY MBT of the INDIAN ARMY BECAUSE OF THEIR PRICE. INdia still has a limited defence budget and cannot buy the Quantity they need at the asking price .That coupled with the Delays prompted the T-90 DEAL. PLEASE GET IT THROUGH YOUR PATHETIC HEADs.

Anywyas back to the ARJUN VS KHALID Comparision. Here are facts about the Arjun ( That even Bedi wouldnt have hte balls to deny)








End of the Day the Arjun would kill the Khalid on an Open Field. SUPERIOR FIRE POWER. LONGER RANGE Couple WITH BMS AND LAHAT MISSLE. The ARJUN Is a TRUE Night Beast in every sense of the word.

"- Arjun’s armor was tested in combat like conditions and fared very well. It also withstood direct fire of APFSDS, HEAT, HESH & various RPG roundsas per the latest trials on September 2003. RPG Rounds were also Sucessfully Tested against the Rear of the Tank."




so you're saying that the alkhalid cant penetrate the arjun's hide??

Latest from DefenseNews

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After 30-Year Wait, India Rejects Arjun for Combat
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHI, NEW DELHI


After waiting 30 years for its indigenously designed Arjun main battle tank, the Indian Army has decided the tank is too heavy for combat.

“It has been decided to use the Arjun main battle tank only for training purposes and not for combat purposes,” said a senior Indian Army official. He added that the Arjun’s weight makes the tank difficult to transport and inhibits maneuverability.

The Arjun order also has been trimmed from 124 to 80 since it will be used only for training, said the Army official. The first batch of five Arjuns were delivered Aug. 7 to the Army by the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in Chennai.



Another Army official said the 58.5-ton Arjun tank is much heavier and wider than the 46.5-ton Russian T-90 tank, which limits its operational mobility.

Problems plagued the Arjun from its inception in 1974 by India’s state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation. The first prototype was conceived in 1984, but the Army found a variety of problems involving its weight, engine overheating and armor protection. Arjun was planned to be ready in 1990 and mass produced by 1997.

Following delays, the Indian government struck a memorandum of understanding with Russia in 2000 to procure 310 T-90 tanks. Under the deal, 180 tanks are to be produced under licensed production at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, and the remaining 130 will be provided to India either fully or partially built, and final assembly would be done in India.

An official of the Indian Ordnance Factories Board, which controls the Avadi factory, said production priorities at Avadi have been shifted, leaving only one assembly line to build Arjuns, while the other two will produce T-90 tanks and upgrade T-72 tanks.

A senior Indian Defence Ministry official would not confirm the Arjun order had been reduced, and claimed that the tank’s problems have been fixed.

The official acknowledged, however, there is a transportation problem because the Arjun is too large for the vehicles already used to transport the T-72 and T-90. Special transport vehicles have been ordered to move the Arjuns, he said.

The Arjuns will cost about $5 million apiece, sources said, which is higher than the T-90 tank because the cost of imported components in the tank have increased from 27 percent to 60 percent.

Early this year, an Israeli Lahat anti-tank missile was mounted on an Arjun tank. The Arjun has a 120mm gun, a 7.22mm machine gun for ground operations and a 12.7mm machine gun for the anti-aircraft role.

The 120mm gun has been procured from France’s GIAT Industries, the engine from MTU and the transmission system from Renk, both of Germany, and the fire control system from Oldelft Instruments of the Netherlands.

BUCKO POST A LINK QUICKLY

Brute, why dont u read my source again, Pakistans AL-Khalids will use a ukranian made 6TDF diesel engine, it clearly states that the export version will carry the german 1200hp engine, the reason why the AL-Khalid was demonstrated with the German MTU-871/ TCM AVDs-1790 diesel engine, is because pakistan is not allowed to export the ukranian 6TDF diesel engine.