I have this thread, if you guys have any question, which you want to ask. Post that here instead of opening insane new topics and one liners.

be respectfull and thank full to the person who provide you the info.

remember we are all here to learn.

Psychosaint i have a question regarding F-16 Block 60 and Rafale my question is which is the better aircraft out of these two secondly if Pakistan could buy F-16 block 60 would it return PAF the edge it once had over its enemy plz dont mind my question like you said we are all here to learn another thing if pakistan could get any of these two aircrafts which one do you think PAF would want???
thankyou.

i think everyone knows it in here but i am just 12 so i wanted to know what is
lock down and shoot down capability

Well as for as my knowledge, Rafale is almost a generation ahead than F-16..It will surly win.As for as return of air supermacy is concern i think F-16 is not a good choice..no matter which veriant we r talking about..Rafale is only answer for MKI at present.

Ok.Now i have a question.How to counter a stealth AC?And how can a 5th gen AC
JSF can cost less than mirage-2000-5?WHat makes it cheap even less than F-16 blk50?

Rafale is a whole new AirCraft and so is F16 Block 60

the thing you look at it is reliability, pricewise, parts, training, inferastructure etc.

Rafals are damn expensive, if you look at the price tag only for the plane and then comes training, Crew, inferastructure, parts. which is gonna cost any airforce alot.

F16s, cheap, reliable, already tested and experienced with. parts are cheaper by far if you compair it with rafales. proven tech, and still one of the feared and honored Strike plane, Aim-120 and much variety of ammo can be carried, has long range. not much behind of Rafales.

but then you look at the politcal reliablity. French are more reliable than USA.

but Price is high and its worth it to go for rafales if you got BUCKS.

in the end it all comes to money. i will try to post more info on both of thier on tech specs. so it can help you understand the missions and in details about both Fighters.

Good question.

The Tomcat is believed to have been the world first fighter to have a look down and shoot down capability.This capability was the last major gap to be closed in air defense. It is also claimed that the F-14 Tomcat not only have capability against hostile aircraft but also Sea Skimming anti-ship missiles.


look-down / shoot-down capability against low-flying targets which might otherwise be obscured by the terrain below.

I hope it will help you to understand the concept. it is mostly for low flying targets. the pilot can look down and shot those low flying target.

About the F-16s and Rafales.

The F-16, no matter what version has a huge and fast production line, and delivery of the aircraft isn't a big problem. The Rafale's production line is less than 10, and thats including exports, if someone wants to increase it, then that menas coughing up hte $$$.

I will answer your first part of the question later. yes Stealth can be detected. there is a possibilty.

but for the second part. Why JSF is cheaper than F16s.

it is simple, Big production line. lots of countries are standing in line to buy it.

Only USAF will be buying it in number. then almost many countries from europe, Middleeast are in line standing to buy it. some of the countries have already placed the order which helped to braught the cost exremly down. the same thing happened to the f16s. because now the development cast has been shared and due to the mass production is cast came down automaticaly. simple economics. supply and demand.

Yes i will try to bring more info about Stealth detection. i opened that topic long ago, it was very detail about stealth detection. let me see if i can find that article for you. it was very informative.

Rafale - F-16 Block 60

Cost - F-16 Block 60

Design - Rafale

Technology - Same level till rafale gets Aesa

F-16 Block 60 -Amraam
Rafale - Mica
My preference - Amraam as a world phemonon in bvraam market

Beauty - rafale

Production speed - block 60

Stealthy Design- rafale

There are stealthy acs , proper stealth is still B-2 and F-117 .

Stealth is detectable in theory but its practical form is said

to be in J-231 radar developed by china not sure if it is deployed yet.

Guys this is From Guru, so i can tell ya this is a fair compairson

What is the H-2 H-4 series of missiles/bombs that Pakistan ha made.

Are they Air to air missiles?

Are they Air to ground Precision guided munitions ?


There have been various reports, the latest one is this :

Here we go with JANES. The weapon systems definetly are standoff AGMs.

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - JANUARY 07, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pakistan conducts second test firing of H-4 missile
ROBERT HEWSON Editor, Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
London
Pakistan is believed to have successfully completed a second test firing of its clandestine H-4 missile system, according to December regional media reports.

Reports of a first test emerged in April 2003, stating that the missile was fired from a Mirage III fighter aircraft and successfully destroyed a target drone.

In the April reports, the H-4 was described as an active-radar air-to-air missile (AAM) and most observers saw it as no coincidence that reports of Pakistan's programme emerged immediately following the first test of India's Astra AAM.

The latest reports describe the H-4 as an air-to-surface weapon and refer to two variants, H-4 and H-2, with a stand-off range of 120km and 60km respectively.

While it is not possible to confirm all details of the H-4 programme, Pakistan is long thought to have fielded a standoff precision-guided weapon system akin to the Raptor series of powered glide bombs developed in South Africa. Sources in Pakistan also suggest a South African connection to other Pakistan Air Force weapon programmes.

The Raptor family was developed by Denel (Kentron) under the codenames H-1, H-2 and H-3 from the late 1970s onwards. It is known that Denel has undertaken integration studies for the Raptor with the F-16 and Mirage aircraft. Pakistan's F-16s have a primary air defence tasking, while its upgraded Mirage IIIs are allocated a precision-guided munition delivery role.

Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff ACM Kaleem Saadat said in October 2003 that a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) capability was a near-term priority for the air force (JDW 8 October 2003). He said discussions were under way with China for the development of the SD-10 BVRAAM

thank you very much pshycosaint

1) My question is can Raphale pull 9g's for extended period?
2) if not then wht are the chances of raphale against Typhoon in WVR??
3) does Typhoon have AESA?
4) If not wht are the chances pf Typhoon against Raphale in BVR ??


My questions r for senior members of this forum PLz answer

Yeah, and MiG-23 was the first soviet fighter to have it with the Saphir-23 and AA-7 Apex missile.

VIPER

Stealth AC -

Get loads of IRST, long-wave radars, multi-static radars, Ladars (high-power beam radars), visual spotting stations, constant CAPs by fighters like MkI with OLS-30 and PRAY !!!!

Oh and yes, make radar coverages overlap to the maximum possible extent.

And about JSF, i think it has got to do with the manufacturing technique rather than equipment. The development cost decreases due to inputs from F-22 programme.

VIPER

i have a question that is it posible that, could AGM-88 HARM (anti radar) use against indian AWCAs???

cuz u know it is made to kill radars, so is it posible that it could lock on to AWCAs??

1) My question is can Raphale pull 9g's for extended period?

Any plane`s full capabilities are not on paper since much depends on the fate of the poor pilot inside rather than finding out the limits of a plane`s capability .


2) does Typhoon have AESA?

2010


4) If not wht are the chances pf Typhoon against Raphale in BVR ??

Both are very modern . Typhoon is a multi nation effort while french withdrew and went for rafale . the capabilities in future are set be not far apart . Typhoon is having lots of technical problems due to its complexities not present in rafale . both are set to field Aesa in few years both are bvr armed and with latest missiles . It remains to be seen if Typhoon`s complexities are solved or not in time .


AGM-88

Its an Air to Ground Missile for radar sites .

PS: not long range too :)

Hey can some body please elaborate on tactics aginst 5th gen AC by a numerically strong 4th gen AC fleet

Dear Psychosaint and other seniour members on this forum i have a important question regarding F-7MF these days F-7MF are being discussed that it was a back up project incase JF-17's project failed, now from what i have read F-7MF is an excellent replacement for F-7P's and F-7MF is an excellent air defence fighter which would be fully BVR capable and it also has a big nose to host a good rader it is also said that F-7MF will be able to carry SD-10, PL-9C and it also would have an HMS in it.


NOW my question is isnt F-7MF an excellent replacement for F-7P's so is there a chance to see this jet in PAF colors second why do peoplle on this forum say that F-7PG is better than F-7MF when one can clearly see it is better? plz do answer my question dear Psychosaint thank you.

I am waiting............

Well goodman, u have know the strength of a 5th gen fighter and its weak link.

Strength is stealthy design, and weak link is radar usage. They depend on virtual radar, ie - they downlink info from AWACS and other Command centres and process it to act as their radar.

Now they use secure data-link, do something to jam it - somehow !!

Take a large task force (sort of kamikaze) to take out AWACS and re-fuelers, so that they fighters will have to use their own radars.

Now u use a good passive-homing missile and other BVRAAMs to take out the chokers. Place snipers in the form of smaller figthers like Mirage-2000-5, flying very low or very high and order them to take a clean shot while the MkI engage them up front.

Dats all i could think of - its tough, comment anyone.

VIPER

Question
why is the JF-17 critsized as being an underpowered fighter aircraft?, which has poor capability and is inferior to the F-16A?
i heard a while ago that the RD-93 enables the JF-17 to have super manuverability is this true?

Super-agility is the ability to maneuver in post-stall situations. JF-17 does not have it, late flankers, F-22 etc have it.

RD-93 is smoky and is error prone.

VIPER

it wont be as much as F16

HOW MANY AL-KHALIDS DOES PAK OPERATE SO FAR ?

i think the numbers are some where between 100-200. i will confirm and will let you know.

Why is that thre was no ceremony of handing Al Khalids to Army like AlZarrar?

Jimmy Jimmy there was a ceremony of handing AL KHALIDS & ALZARRAR thanks to PA and it happened in september if i am not wrong

I think that was 80+ Alzarrar handed to PA??

The reason for the smokey engine was the poor quality oil which was used in the engine, it was of none-nato standard.

33 & 93, both are smoky not due to oil but due to design.

Dats why MiG-29s smoke in every nation.

VIPER

Hey its good to know i'm not the only one that under the age of 15.

my question is about pakistani F7 pgs . Can they be soon fited with sd10 capability and same question about rose upgraded mirages .

PG can carry SD-10 with a little modification of pylons. Mirage-ROSE can also do the same. It can also carry Darter series BVRAAMs.

Like the BISON, PG will not be able to use the SD-10 to its full range, which will hurt more in case of PG coz SD-10 may have a better long range performance than R-77. But since both are close-range fighters, it is good enough for them.

VIPER

if the PAF ever faced conflict with india, would the PAF arm there F-16s to carry the SD-10???

My question is when will be able to see the result's of the turkish excersises and would be able to see the results accquired by the PAF pilots and how they performed???

And the results will be on what basis?

what the hell is that suppose to mean?

I mean ..Country Vs country or team vs team....As there r many counries participating

No,US won't give software code for that and i think PAK F-16s r too old to take any modifications.And then why use Falcon if u have other sources....

I've got a question for you. What i wana know is that the An-225 Antonov, is it still flying & that if they are, then are the russians using them as the heavy lift military transport aircraft. And if there are any countries that operate this giant. Last but not the least, is the C-5 Galaxy bigger than the An-225. Plus ... what is the code name that NATO gave the An-225??????????

Thanks!!

An225 is called 'Cossack' by NATO. Some were supposedly flying cargo into Iraq for construction companies.

There is only one operational AN-225 and only that one was produce by the russian.And i think it is the biggest,even bigger than C-5

So basically no one has taken any interest in procuring this giant, eversince it was made. Tell me, does Pakistan need a heavy lift capabilitywith heavywieghts like the C-17 Globemaster, the C-5 Galaxy, or this giant the An-225 Cossack. Or would Pakistan get the newer version of hercules, the C-130J!??

I thought An-225 was called Mriya???

To the Q that nobody has taken an interest to produce an A/C with the Mirya's capability .

The Mirya was produced for basically one purpose, to transport the Soviet space shuttle. In the US, the same job was done by a modified 747. SInce the Soviets could not buy a 747 at the time, they decided to create the Mirya. With the demise of the Shuttle program, there was no need for a AC of this size.

The Russian army seems to have made clear that they prefer the smaller craft. Could be for numerous reasons, e.g., shorter T/O and landing strip needed. no need for that large a transport, less loss of life if AC goes down (don't keep all your eggs in one basket doctrine).

I guess the Mirya is like the Concord, may be technically impressive, but not commercially viable.

Q 1 what does we mean by fly by war technology(maybe i am wrong but something like that)
Q2 what does we exactly mean by BVR capability(i know it means beyond visual range but a little detail required)
Q3 How effective is the composite material in stealth

FBW-

Fly-by-wire is a technology used to make aircrafts easy to fly and sometimes also to make ustable designs flyable.

Normal aircrafts like say a MiG-21, uses direct pilot input to the stick which is fed to the control surfaces through pure hydraulics. So the aircraft behaves exactly as you control the stick. This is a negative point as sometimes, u may overstress the frame of the aircraft during high-g maneuvering.

The first FBW was developed on a test-bed F-8-II Crusader aircraft - it was an analog FBW.

The first purely digital FBW aircraft to hit the air force was the legendry F-16 Viper. It was an unstable design, meaning that it could not fly straight without constant trimming of controls. So a computer Flight Control System was developed which took inputs from various control surfaces, as well as the pilot's stick and then maneuvered the plane accordingly within its limits.

In the F-16, a few mm of stick displacement is enough to put the Viper in maximum turn rate. Its damn sensitive !!! F-117 also used an advanced FBW coz it was unstable as well.

In Mirage-2000, the FBW has a different role. Delta design is not unstable, but it has inherent flaws, like low-sustained performance, long land-takeoff distances etc.

What Dassault did was that they shifted the Centre of lift forward of the Centre of Gravity, so the Mirage became unstable as the nose always wanted to pitch up. A 100% digital FBW was developed to control the plane. With an digital FBW, u can extract the maximum out of an aircraft at particular parameteres. Mirage FBW is optimised for alpha demand below 250 kts and g-demand above it.

Some planes are neutrally stable like the F-15, but u can install FBW to make them more responsive and easier to fly. To extract the maximum out of Flanker series fighters, u can turn the FBW off with a switch and do all the wild stuff like Cobra and stuff.

Remember that while FBW makes planes easy to fly, it restricts u from taking the fighter to the hilt during combat. Dats why PAF viper drivers think of F-7 as a very potent adversary. Experienced pilots in aircrafts like MiG-21 can make a mess of any fighter. But Flanker series fighter allow u to switch the FBW off, which every aircraft does not allow.

BTW, nowdays even throttle is digitally controlled as in Su-37. U don't push or pull the throttle, but u press a switch back and forth, and it settles to neutral on its own - like a two way switch with spring.


BVR-

Beyond-Visual Range Combat begins after 20-25 Kms (a little more than that). But today with NBVR missiles (Near-BVR), u can say it begins at 30-35 Kms. It mostly utilises Radar guided missiles (some which need parent aircraft's radar like AIM-7 and some which are independently guided to some extent like AIM-120). Some missiles like R-27 also feature an Infra-red guidance for BVR. The longest range missile to arm a fighter was the AIM-54 Phoenix for use against soviet bombers.

BVR missiles started in Vietnam but no actual BVR combat happened till Gulf War. The problem was IFF (Identification Friend or Foe), they could not make out enemies and allies. So they had to visually confirm which negated the BVR advantage.

Practical fighter-fighter BVR begins at 20 kms and is not likely to go beyond 60 Kms (which is an aggressive range). The reason is that a missile like AIM-120 with a 60-70 Kms range cannot hit targets at max-range. The enemy will make a wide-turn (BEAM) or turn back to evade the missile. So kill-zone BVR does not go beyond 40-50 kms, that too in case of missiles like AIM-120, R-77 and R-27. Missiles like Derby, MICA and Super-530D have even shorter kill-zones.

If u want, u can ask for specific details, coz this topic is really huge. Some people who come to know about it straight away think that it rocks and WVR is over. But only with knowledge and experience u will learn how it is implemented in Combat.


Composites-

Modern Stealth fighters employ contouring for Stealthy design, not edges like in F-117. So that is not possible without composites. And it has less reflectivity when compared to titanium or alumunium. But more important factor is contouring, which makes aircraft aerodynamically good and also stealthy.



VIPER

thanks for your reply SIR!!!