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popcornguy
I'm posting this debate on some economic forums, and I'm doing so here as well. Recently it seems talking for an Asian economic alliance rivaling the EU are under way, and could come into place by the end of the decade. Since a number of asian economics are developing, what sort of impact of free trade with more developed have? Would you see the same sort of economic prosperity that EU developed. Or could it lead to a very radical shift in how local economics work causing millions to go jobless in a short period of time, before the prosperity of a trade bloc reaches the masses? Are countries such as India (with many different people) capable of facing through socialist public pressure and go through the painful reforms needed for a better future? Or would public pressure triumph for slower, more phased reforms?

Or would infact an asian trade bloc be implemented in phases where protective measures are slowly peeled away as local industry becomes more competitive?

Here's an article:

QUOTE

Jan. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Asia's largest economies will start planning a free-trade zone that would rival the U.S. and the European Union, after overcoming China's reluctance to include India and Australia.

Leaders of 16 nations endorsed the plan for a trade zone stretching from India to New Zealand in a meeting in Cebu, the Philippines.

The proposal may ultimately lead to lower tariffs and increased trade in a region with a combined economic output of $9 trillion that is home to almost half the world's population. It's the first time Asian nations agreed on an integration similar to the creation of the EU, where per-capita gross domestic product rose more than fivefold in the last 30 years even as the bloc grew and its population rose almost 80 percent.

``China and Japan now see it in their national interests to play a more active role'' in regional integration, said Malcolm Cook, program director for Asia and the Pacific at the Lowy Institute in Sydney. ``If Asia is a more united region, they are going to want a greater role in global affairs.''

Both the Australian and New Zealand dollar rose against the U.S. dollar on the news.

``This trade deal will have huge economic benefits,'' said Warwick McKibbin, a professor of international economics at the Australian National University and a member of the Reserve Bank of Australia's policy-setting board. ``It gives Asean some teeth, although it may complicate world trade talks.''

Earlier Discord

The first East Asia Summit in Kuala Lumpur in December 2005 ended in disagreement over the concept. Japan backed a free- trade plan that included all 16 nations. China wanted a 13- nation bloc that excluded India, Australia and New Zealand.

Today's meeting was attended by Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao, Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, Australian Prime Minister John Howard, New Zealand Premier Helen Clark and leaders from the 10-member Association of Southeast Asian Nations. Japan, the region's largest economy, will fund an $85 million study of the proposal.

``There was acceptance that a study be done and New Zealand strongly supports that,'' Clark told reporters in Cebu. ``This will be a very, very significant bloc. Of course, it's not the only horse running around the Asia-Pacific area.''

Rival Plans

The proposed free-trade area will rival a similar plan by the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation, which includes the U.S., China, Russia, Japan and South American nations. It will take years for either plan to be realized, said Charles Adams, a professor at the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore.

China's relations with both Japan and India have improved since the 2005 summit. President Hu Jintao went to India in November, the first visit by a Chinese head in a decade. Hu said he wanted to ``increase mutual trust'' and signed 13 agreements.

Japan's Abe visited Beijing in October to repair ties damaged by visits by his predecessor, Junichiro Koizumi, to Tokyo's Yasukuni shrine, a war memorial.

``India and China are the powerhouse economies in Asia and the world, so it's fitting to include both of them in such a trade bloc,'' said Peter Drysdale, a professor in Asia-Pacific relations at the Canberra-based Australian National University.

16 Nations

The 16 countries that would be included in the free-trade area are Japan, China, India, South Korea, Australia, Indonesia, Thailand, New Zealand, Malaysia, Singapore, the Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Laos, Cambodia and Myanmar.

``In the back of everyone's minds is that the WTO has stalled and that major economies like the U.S. are coming up with their own trade-bloc proposals,'' said Song Seng Wun, regional economist at CIMB-GK Securities in Singapore. ``If Asia doesn't do something, it faces marginalization. This is a pragmatic response rather than an anti-American one.''

Leaders should try to revive the World Trade Organization talks that began five years ago, said Adams of the Lee Kuan Yew School. ``We should still give primary focus to the WTO,'' he said. Setting up so many regional agreements can be ``messy, and there is the risk of undercutting the multilateral system.''

For leaders of the 10-member Asean group, who proposed the bloc to avoid being left out as investors focus on India and China, the meeting in Cebu has been a success as nations signed trade accords and a treaty to counter terrorism, and Asean got tough on itself by setting up rules for the first time in four decades.

`Home Runs'

``The Asean group hit home runs on multiple fronts,'' Robert Lees, president of business lobby group the Pacific Basin Economic Council, said in an interview. ``Asean is getting its act together, speaking more and more with a single voice.''

Asean has also proved itself as the lead organization for bringing Asian nations together, said Sheng Li Jun, senior fellow of the Institute of Southeast Asian Studies in Singapore.

``China, Japan and India need Asean as a platform to discuss regional integration; they can't deal directly, bilaterally, because of border rivalries or historical mistrust,'' he said by telephone today. ``Asean is in the driver's seat of Asian economic integration, and it can stay there, if only as a taxi driver.''

Nafta and EU

Integration in Europe and North America has fostered growth in trade among the members of the trading blocs in those regions. Trade among the 15 members of the European Union at the start 2004 accounted for 34 percent of the total EU GDP that year, up from 26 percent in 1993, according to the bloc's statistics office.

Across the Atlantic, trade among the three countries in the North America Free Trade Agreement -- the U.S., Canada and Mexico -- doubled in the first decade after that deal took effect in 1993, according to International Monetary Fund data.

The Asian leaders also agreed to reduce dependence on conventional fuels such as coal and invest in biofuels and nuclear energy. Each nation said it would adopt a 12-point plan to reduce fossil fuels and invest in so-called green energy to combat climate change.

The leaders said global energy needs are growing rapidly and fossil fuel supplies are limited. They also said world oil prices are ``unstable'' and there is an ``urgent need'' to address global warming and climate change


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...amp;refer=japan
Please post your opinions. I am infact writing a research paper. I work for a university that has been contracted to do research on this matter and I may infact even fly to China, India and Japan as part of this paper (university funded of course BANANA.GIF ) I will put my opinions on this as people discuss
Hellraiser006



I cannot see how the countries mentioned can form a trade block rivalling the US or Europe. Sure, there is huge potential but the disparities in income levels, exports, strengths of currencies and business culture seems too disparate for the type of union they are considering. Look at the European Union. It is a pretty homogenous grouping of peoples, cultures, currency strengths and economic output. Asia is far too diverse for a trade block in the European Union sense. The United States is even more homogenous than the EU.

And I really can't understand how Australia is Asia. They have a very European outlook on almost everything. Every Australian I ever met considers themselves European and White and not Asian. This is a nonsense.

I think what will work is that economies like China, Japan and possibly in the future India lock surrounding economies into their economies by providing markets for the goods of other countries around them. Also, through investment in economic zones in other countries these countries can benefit from cheaper manpower and economies of scale. There is more I am sure. This was just a stream of consciousness not definitive.
aziqbal
QUOTE(Hellraiser006 @ Jan 16 2007, 10:50 AM) [snapback]849872[/snapback]

I cannot see how the countries mentioned can form a trade block rivalling the US or Europe. Sure, there is huge potential but the disparities in income levels, exports, strengths of currencies and business culture seems too disparate for the type of union they are considering. Look at the European Union. It is a pretty homogenous grouping of peoples, cultures, currency strengths and economic output. Asia is far too diverse for a trade block in the European Union sense. The United States is even more homogenous than the EU.



New and Eastern European members like Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia arent all that rich compared to UK, France, Spain, Germany, Italy etc.

Compare them to Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Philiphines and Indonesia we are not too bad, our leaders are Malaysia, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, South Korea, China, Japan etc etc so I think we can make a block to rival EU. Yes Europe has many many talent and experience and GDP and we still rely on them for technology but as time goes on we are closing the gap, forget Middleast US has destoyed it we should look towards Asia, plus Asian peoples are very hard working and Asian dollar go much further than EU or US dollar.
ehsan
Australia & NZ fall in the Asian zone by virtue of geography and not because of preference.

I don't think that an Asian trading block of the size of either EU or NAFTA will emerge in Asia. The main reason is that local rivalries and border disputes have been taken to a meaningless level.

The major players are
Individual Countries
PRC & Hong Kong
Japan
South Korea
India
Singapore

Regional Fora:
GCC
Most influential country Saudi Arabia
The GCC cannot hook up geographically with the rest of Asia for two reasons
- The Arabs traditional mistrust of Shia Iran
- Pakistan's traditional rivalry with India

SAFTA
Most influential country India
Unlikely to take off in its envisged state due to Indo-Pak rivalries

BIMSTEC
Most influential country India
Key players Bangladesh (Geographic lynchpin) and Thailand (Power connection to ASEAN)
Intersection of two trading blocks SAFTA & ASEAN, Still Work in Progress.
Bangladesh is likely to be a troublesome player in this block due as its relationship with India changes with its government.

ASEAN
The most happening block in the world.
Most likely to succeed in forming an EU style union.
Stuck between striking a balance between China Impinging on its freedom to act with an Indian partnership

APEC
Currently a reasonably successful forum for far eastern countries. China's imperial manner is rubbing other countries the wrong way big time. Expect to see disputes or irelevance creep in.

Former CIS countries.
Unlikely to be of any help to anyone. These states are mostly at each others throats.
aziqbal
QUOTE(ehsan @ Jan 16 2007, 11:28 AM) [snapback]849895[/snapback]

ASEAN
The most happening block in the world.
Most likely to succeed in forming an EU style union.
Stuck between striking a balance between China Impinging on its freedom to act with an Indian partnership



Yes definatly China-ASEAN trade last year was $160 billion increase of 23% over 2005. China is making headquaters for ASEAN members with new airport with mono-rail in China. Vietnam is booming and Thailand just made new mega bridge in Bangkok and new airport.
ac/dc
popcorn guy i dont want to talk of achievemtns of indian economics but some problems we face,

1> health care system - it has to be noted while private health care is on par with WORLDS BEST govt health care systems are plagued with neglegency and incopetency of people to work. the issue lies in mind set of ceretain peoples.

2> police reforms in a socio-economical society - supreme court gave its green signal on it recently and its likely to happen within a year.

3> energy security is a plus point in past 1 month 225 TCF of gas has been found in KG basin.india is worlds one of MOST unexplored country when it comes to oil/gas.
still we need LTOS energy in form of nuke reactors.

yada yada [etc etc.......]

now coming back i persoanlly done think how can people contribute to a thesis your writing on pdf, you could have tried out economic/financial forums, however a footnote about indias soon getting captured by maoists will surely make your thesis popular here.

anyways back to business a recent article,

QUOTE

Japanese team to meet India for FTA talks
Source: IRIS (16 January 2007)

A high-level team of Japanese officials is coming India on Jan 29 to start the first round of negotiations on the proposed free trade agreement with India, report agency sources.

Commerce Secretary, G K Pillai provided information that the Japanese team would hold discussions with Indian officials on the terms of reference and the broad parameters of the framework agreement which would become the basis of the FTA. Once the terms of reference are defined, the working groups would meet, he said.

Commerce Secretary, G K Pillai said that as the FTA with Japan had to be concluded within two years, a sense of urgency was being shown by both the sides.

India is considering a slew of FTAs and comprehensive economic cooperation agreements (CECA) with Japan, South Korea, China and even Australia.

As far as the proposed CECA with EU is concerned, a team from EU will come to India for further discussions, once the EU Council of Ministers gives a final clearance in February.

The commerce secretary further informed that all the internal clearances have been obtained by the commerce ministry.

On the same lines, he further informed that a joint study group examining the feasibility of an FTA or Regional Trade Agreement with China would submit its report by October, 2007. Negotiations are expected to start in 2008 and completed in two years after which the agreement should start, he estimates.
http://www.myiris.com/newsCentre/newsPopup...;secID=livenews


I want to wait next 5 years and see how much the infrastructure and agricultural dev takes us - thats a major hindrance hitting 12% ++
aziqbal
QUOTE(ac/dc @ Jan 16 2007, 11:51 AM) [snapback]849910[/snapback]

anyways back to business a recent article,
I want to wait next 5 years and see how much the infrastructure and agricultural dev takes us - thats a major hindrance hitting 12% ++



Holy crap not 12%++!!! Please lets be reasonable.

Before people used to say Japan is miracle economy now everyone says its China and even both of them superpowers dont make 12%++ growth rate.
ac/dc
QUOTE(aziqbal @ Jan 16 2007, 01:13 PM) [snapback]849926[/snapback]

Holy crap not 12%++!!! Please lets be reasonable.

Before people used to say Japan is miracle economy now everyone says its China and even both of them superpowers dont make 12%++ growth rate.

i know bro, was just a rought estimate your right 12% within 5 years is unreasonable.

however PROVIDED the way china reformed AGRICULTURAL sector we can hit 11%.and double digit is possible with infrastructure, still 12% sustainable is kinda absurd. 9 to 12 fractuating 100% possible provided agriculture and infrastructure issue being solved.

japan cannot hit 12% its saturated.
indian markets are not even 30% exploited....

trust me u dont even know lac tonnes of vegetables, potatoes, wheat rots in cold storages
ISI2003
it's about developing the countries, because these nations have huge potiential (consider europes 450 million people have a lot of wealth)

the asian nations probably have half the worlds wealth, alot of resources, and along way to develop, and develop/modernization creates an economic boom, just look at china

imagine if asain nations start to develop their infastructure, educate and care for their people and compete on the world economic playing field

and growth in asia means growth around the world, as long as it's fair
yakeepi

Here is the new treaty, and I am really doubt the "The Asian Trade Bloc" will come any time soon.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/N...PK:4607,00.html

China is runing milti-billion trade deficit with ASEAN, providing the cash they need, while India economy is not at that level yet. Plus India economy is too protective, free trade is still a long way for them.

As for Australia in free trade pact, Indonesia wont be happy, there are qutie a few things needed to be solved.
yakeepi
One thing, India lists as 29th importer of Japanese goods, while China lists as the no 1.

How do India and Japan manage to have a "free trade" in this scenario? It's simply not practical. Japanese proposal is just a way to block the free trade zone, in a shrewed way.

But never mind, the original Chinese proposal is 10+1. If South Korea wants to join, then it's 10+2, Japan can not block the road.
MirBadshah
QUOTE(yakeepi @ Jan 16 2007, 02:16 PM) [snapback]849966[/snapback]

Here is the new treaty, and I am really doubt the "The Asian Trade Bloc" will come any time soon.

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/N...PK:4607,00.html

China is runing milti-billion trade deficit with ASEAN, providing the cash they need, while India economy is not at that level yet. Plus India economy is too protective, free trade is still a long way for them.

As for Australia in free trade pact, Indonesia wont be happy, there are qutie a few things needed to be solved.


That is the major reason why any asian bloc is not in sight. When China is going in to deficit, it need to invest in to partner countries to improve their industarial infrastructure.

Second thing is China's huge foreign reserves, China needs to invests a part of its reserves on its people in form of loans, subsedies and grants to improve their living standerd and generate a sizeable middle class which would serve as a market for its Asian trading partners.

In europe the education rate is almost 100%, people have gone through the change in mindset for decades and ultimately realised the need to form a bloc, however situation is different in Asia and lack of awareness would not let any such move to succeed. Same goes on political, social and cultural fronts.

However any move started today might yeild result in next two decaded.
MoThSmOkE
Only trade bloc that is working in Asia is the ASEAN. All other trade blocs are hopeless to say the least.

China - Japan
India - Pakistan
Iraq - Iran
Saudi - Iran
UAE - Iran

Far too many personal vandettas for a trade bloc to work. Concentrate on a country by country trade relation. Trade bloc is just too far fetched.
popcornguy
I honestly think economics and the betterment of people's lives will triumph over regional politics.
Europe still has major differences, but they are trading. Europe has countries with varying levels of prosperity, but yet the trade block prospers..

The chief purpose of a trade bloc is to enhance trade. China seems to be pushing for it now as much as India and Japan. I really don't see why this won't happen, it will take at least 5 years though
ac/dc
Well i really like India economy not being totaslly gung ho and opening up.
It is doing it slowly and casutiously.

If Indian economy opened up a decade back we would have never seen infosys/mindtree/ranbaxy/biocon/videocon the list is endless.

More more companies are on the rise slow exposure to FDI will make growth a bit slow but will strenthen the base exposure.

but it has opened up a LOT, other than sensitive areas like ports etc etc.

yakeepi

We can't be too optimistic since many issues are involved here.

I agree with ac/dc that India is in no mode to have that free trade since it is not ready yet. Japan simly doesn't want it becasue it is enjoying the present industry product export while protecting its agriculture section. Japan wants India involved just for watering down the negotiation.

Chinese free trade intention is to purchasing ASEAN/Pak's agriculture products since they have a lot of stuff China can't grow. China is not that afriad of competation in agriculture, last year its agriculture product export is 36 billion usd. And also China is negotiating with Aussie and New Zeiland for free trade so no reason to be against their inclusion.

The reality is that China will do free trade with those nations first, bypassing Japan and India, nothing can be done in the other way except an endless negotiation.
MirBadshah
QUOTE(ac/dc @ Jan 18 2007, 11:11 AM) [snapback]850767[/snapback]

Well i really like India economy not being totaslly gung ho and opening up.
It is doing it slowly and casutiously.

If Indian economy opened up a decade back we would have never seen infosys/mindtree/ranbaxy/biocon/videocon the list is endless.

More more companies are on the rise slow exposure to FDI will make growth a bit slow but will strenthen the base exposure.

but it has opened up a LOT, other than sensitive areas like ports etc etc.


I mean was it realy related to the topic or a copy of "DoorDarshan" commentry?
ac/dc
QUOTE(yakeepi @ Jan 18 2007, 11:28 AM) [snapback]850770[/snapback]

We can't be too optimistic since many issues are involved here.

I agree with ac/dc that India is in no mode to have that free trade since it is not ready yet. Japan simly doesn't want it becasue it is enjoying the present industry product export while protecting its agriculture section. Japan wants India involved just for watering down the negotiation.

Chinese free trade intention is to purchasing ASEAN/Pak's agriculture products since they have a lot of stuff China can't grow. China is not that afriad of competation in agriculture, last year its agriculture product export is 36 billion usd. And also China is negotiating with Aussie and New Zeiland for free trade so no reason to be against their inclusion.

The reality is that China will do free trade with those nations first, bypassing Japan and India, nothing can be done in the other way except an endless negotiation.

Quite correct But we have trade in diff levels and china and india have found a way to consolidate each other in the FTA market both without destroying each others home economy.

India faces a fear thats why its not opened up (though it has a lot) on chinese goods in indian market being cheapeer than indian produced goods means killing of home industry.and frankly chinese electronics goods are really cheap but really sub par quality specially precision electronics, their IC's as i am a electronics fan.Like whenever i go to IC shop though twice the cost i prefer japan made or taiwan made IC's anytime.[considering total lifetime cost as well]
india is picking up the manufacturing sector on serious basis so we neednot open up but just wait and support the inside industries.

just like we have opened up retail market , walmart coming but we have done our homework of suporting rleiance/bharti before they comes.

Indias External affairs minister is friend of chinas oil minister, they have both decided to invest jointly in some oilfields in africa etc etc.

So yeah good deals are working out lets see what trhe future promises for both.Present border talks started today if solved would take things to next level.

QUOTE

How do India and Japan manage to have a "free trade" in this scenario? It's simply not practical. Japanese proposal is just a way to block the free trade zone, in a shrewed way.

India japan free trade pact is practical on the basis its low, if it was huge to flow our markets we douldnt do it.

Areas like civil nuke reactors , japan have reliable ones.

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