Here is a interesting news from TRT News about Milgem is in türkisch for someone who can Türkish.Pakistan wants to build with technical assistance of Turkey 3 korvets in karachi .If that true it is a good news for our Pakistan brothers .

http://www.trt.net.tr/wwwtrt/hdevam.aspx?hid=170451&k=3

yeah i've read similar news on pakdef. not sure if anything solid has been signed yet....

nice stuff, specs armament, sensor package can somenoe paste it here with a pic?

i'm a lazy man to google honestly.

this is the first ship and it is a prototype .end of this year if the first ship finished we get more information and details about equipments end weapons.
here is some info unfortunately old news

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgem
http://www.turkishnavy.net/milgeme.htm

From what I can make out from the article, Pakistan intends to order 4 Milgem Corvettes, of which 3 would be built at Karachi? Good news, I preferred the PN choose one of MEKO, Gowind and MILGEM.

I like the Milgem, thankyou tskv brother for the news.

This is great news and just the start when it comes to seeing the active working together on defence projects with our brother nation. The Milgem is a nice corvette that bears a resemblance with Lockheed Martins Littoral Combat Ship (LCS-1).

It has a standard displacement of 2000 tones in line with other corvettes, a 93 man crew and operates with a range of 3.500 miles[15 knots]. Sensor wise it comes with a plethora of excellent systems including an X band radar which have received considerable attention due to the short wavelength at this frequency and the resulting high-resolution imaging makes for excellent target identification and target discrimination. It is also said to come with a 3D search radar of which origin I do not know but seeing as future applications include the induction of the sea sparrow missile the radar is dedicated to tracking aerial threats.

But the real bonus point is the fire power this corvette can deliver with an arsenal of
8 Harpoon Missiles
21 RAM (Rolling Airframe Missile) PDMS, which are point defence missile designed to intercept incoming cruise missiles/anti ship missiles and is available in coming anti ship missiles [very important considering the Indian Navy. There are currently 2 variants and a third is being developed that will engage aircraft, surface combatants and helicopters and should be seeing service in 2009.


Here is a nice gif showing it in action




The corvette also comes with 2 x 324 mm Mk.32 triple launchers for torpedoes that at this point in time will be the Mark.46.

My strong hunch is Pakistan will aim to have a greater number of these corvettes after the first 4 are inducted. I will put the final figure at around 8-10 which would make for a strong supplementary force with Pakistan’s larger vessels that will be part of the modernization program.

The Milgem may also be upgraded with VLS and might be configured for UAV/UUV launch.

Interesting..... does PN operate any unmanned submersibles?

It will all come down to money

Pakistan has 8 Frigates, 3 MineHunters, 8 patrol vessels, and 9 submarines
In the american LCS, minehunting is a capability and it should be made a capability on this vessel

Pakistan will probably maintain the number of submarines
the Milgem should be acquired to replace all of the patrol vessels and minehunters (for the sake of commonality/maintiance, and a modern stealthy fleet), this being about 11 vessels (12 would be enough)

the 4 planned f-22p will probably be followed up a different kind of frigate
which in my estimation should by 3 type 054A (but hopefully with a mini-aegis type system, and area defense missiles)

19 surface vessels, 9 submarines, and 3 support vessels would create a 30 ship fleet, a truely modern navy
===============
the milgem will probably not get vls, but hopefuly the f-22p will have at least 8 vls tubes, with area defense missiles

here is another link with more info from waff forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/242808/thre...Must+See%21+%29

ISI2003

The PN's present submarine fleet includes 5 SSKs and 3 Midget submarines. The acquisition of 3 U-214/Marlin SSKs would allow the PN to maintain a fleet of 6 SSKs. Heard there were plans to expand the SSK fleet to 9, but we'll have to wait and see. The Midget submarines may not be replaced and just phased out, but if the PN intends so - it could look at the DCN SMX-23 light SSK as a potential Midget replacement.

I estimate 4 Type-054A will be bought and will supplement 4 F-22P and 4 Milgem. IMO all 12 vessles will likey use the same surface-to-surface missiles (Exocet MM40 Block III, Harpoon or C-802), same surface-to-missiles on a VLS system (Aster 15 or Umkhonto) and I hope Rolling Airframe Missile becomes a standard system as well.

The Pn should look towards a future with a blue water indian navy, and plan to count it
the IN wants to blocade the whole pakistani coast

so a fleet of 12 stealthy corvette pread out would give the right punch
the f-22p could be usewd as ASW ships and the 054A could be used as ASuW and AAW ships

the PN should work in assymetrical capabilities; supersonic cruise missiles worked into vls systems on the 054A (its about 4500-5000 tons, so 4 missiles is possible in the size field at least)

this is like a stealthy one but next generation ie new corvets around the world underdevelopment is much more stealthy as they are small and can be made stealthy and large numbers. which asm it has?

Well i think PN should go for strong SUB force to counter IN and it will be 6-8 U216s/Marlins or both with Aug90bs.

A- 4 f22p
B- 4 054a/b or Meko 200a
C- 10-12 milgem corvt
D- 3 aug90b
E- 3-4 marlins
F- 3-4 u216
G-8-10 mrtp 33
h- 8-10 fac

I think this could be possible and very good and hell of a good combination for our navy and it could be possible with our financial conditons (we to look in our pocket too).

what is the price of 6-8 merlins or u216?

ISI2003

The Type-054A class is in the 3500-4000 ton displacement class, and a PN order would be for 4 ships.

I hope the PN equips the Type-054A, F-22P and Milgem with Exocet MM40 Block III, Aster 15, MU-90 torpedo and RIM-116 w/Mk-44 RAM. If PN could equip the Type-054A with the Aster 15 & 30 PAAMS, Milas anti-submarine missile and Scalp Naval land attack cruise missile - that would be great.

The current PN modernization effort includes:

• 4 3500+ ton displacement frigate: Type-054A or MEKO Delta ($1.2bn?)
• 4 2000+ ton displacement corvette: Milgem ($600mn?)
• 4 2400? ton displacement light frigate: F-22P ($600mn)
• 3 SSK conventional attack submarine: U-214 or Marlin ($1~1.2bn)
• 8 Light FAC: MRTP-33
• 1-2 Modern Minehunters
• 1 Tanker
• 6-8 New Helicopters to replace Seaking: NH-90 or S-70
• 6+ New Helicopters to replace Alouette?: Z-9EC?

Yep.

Guys from the news I have been hearing from insiders is that the Pakistan Navy aims to operate a 30 surface ship Navy. The Type 054A will compliment the F-22 light frigates and are part of the indigenous ship building plans the Navy has so they can make and bring out large displacement ships without the need to go elsewhere.

On top of this we will see tenders go out for 8 ships, frigates in this case to the Europeans and from the information I have the firms that are putting forward bids are DCN, Navantia and a German firm which I am not sure of but Blohm + Voss, Lürssen and HDW have all expressed an interest.

The corvette tender has now more or less been settled with regards to the Milgem.

Pakistan is also looking for 2-4 very large surface ships that will act as command and control ships. All in all this adds up to 30 ships including the bumping up of the corvette numbers.

The Following Force Structure will Give the Pakistan Navy a 30 Ship Surface Fleet, all Ships are modern, a modern submarine fleet, and a modern air component

Surface Fleet

4 054A (Command Ship Requirement and Overall AAW Converage) Need Aegis Upgrade

8 F-22P (Light Frigate, ASW Frigate)

12 Milgem Corvette (Can Replace all Patrol and Minehunter Vessels, 1:1)

4 Fleet Replenishment Ship (There are two Large Ones and two new large ones will be needed to maintian the above fleet)

1 Hydrographic Survey Vessel

1 Major Transport (Enough For 400-700 Troops and Equipement; For Regional Projection, or aid an Ally)

Submarines; 9 Submarines (3 Augusta 90B, 3 U-214, 3 SSGK, for launching babur cruise missiles)

Helicopters: 14 Z-9 (to replace all aging small helicopters with one type), 6 Z-15 (to replace sea kings with a modern capable platform)

Transport: 8 C-235's or 5 C-130's, to replace Fokkers

ASW/ASuW Turboprop: 12 P-3C

Fighters/ ASuW: Three Squadrans (50 JF-17);
One Squadran at Karachi
One Squadran at Ormara
One Squadran at Gwadar

Awacs Coverage: 2 Chinese Awacs or 2 Erieye
===================
Can Someone Calculate the Costs of this Structure

There are a few problems bro with that line up as firstly the corvettes will not number more than ten and the light frigates of the F-22 calibre do not plan to be produced at anything above four at this time and I haven't seen or heard about them being produced in greater numbers in the future. They are part of a plan for us to familiarise ourselves with indigenous ship building so we are able to produce larger ships. The European frigates will make up the rest.

With regards to AWACS coverage I doubt we will be seeing more than one Erieye in service with the Navy as they have been brought in to shore up the PAF. With the Hawkeye and joint Chinese program the Erieye may not even be needed but I would use scepticism in this case because of the enlargement of the Indian Naval wing.

If the Type 054 was to take the role of command and control which I don’t think it will as the PN will look for heavier ships with more firepower, we will still have a critical shortage of surface action vessels especially when faced with the IN.

The rest of the line up is great.

waz

Could the PN's requirement of 2-4 large command ships be related to the thing we were talking about on PM? Do you think the FREMM is under consideration for that requirement? As for the 8 advanced frigate requirement, is the MEKO Delta under evaluation by PN?

Yes bro the topic we talked about on PM most defiantly relates to this. The FREMM is the hot candidate for the flag ship quota. Now the reasons I say this are a few firstly the French have pitched a good deal to the Pakistan Navy and these vessels fall under this category. People are talking about the financial cost but I know that a large acquisition budget has been set aside for the Navy of which we saw part of it being used for the P3 Hawkeye deal [$855 million]. The next thing is that with the denial of the Russian engines for the JF-17 program this left a bitter taste in the mouths of many and the Navy is not looking to repeat this. The Type 054 has a good deal of Russian input involved with it which means that our negotiations for such ships will lead us to procuring combat systems, communications and surveillance suites from elsewhere and with regards to this we will be looking at Thales and DCN. So the logical step in this case has been to have the FREMM under consideration as future deal with systems for our Type 054's will be that much sweeter for us. The next thing is that the Aster 15 and 30 missiles are being looked at to provide air defence and the 15 block variety will be part of the new frigates. Finally the displacement and advanced nature of this class of ships is just right for the Navy.

As for the advanced frigate requirement yes the MEKO is also in the running and may be the eventual winner. The whole Pakistan Navy connection is an interesting one because whilst our negotiations with our brother nation Turkey and the resulting news we have about the Milgem, Pakistan was also pointed into the direction of Blohm & Voss as they have a good history with the Turkish Navy and SOLD them the MEKO 200 design that produced their own class of frigates that can be seen here

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/meko/meko8.html

Blohm & Voss are ager to a deal with the Pakistani Navy for the eight frigate requirement and by the looks of it will be the D class as this is their prime product that is being marketed for export.

Oh and I just like to touch upon the Navantia thing I mentioned before, do you remember a Pakistani Naval delegation going to Spain and signing agreements with their Navy? Amongst the talks were representatives of Navantia who wanted to help out with Pakistan's frigate requirement.

By the way I have some excellent news about Pakistan’s helicopter tender that I will PM you.

why keep it to yourself bro!

share it with us!

Waz,. PM me the info!!

waz

So I am guessing that the PN's long-term plans will extend beyond 2020? So I assume it will include;

• 4 heavy surface combatants based off FREMM for PAAMS & Naval Cruise Missile usage?
• 8 multi-role European frigates, likely MEKO Delta?
• 4 Type-054 frigates, primarily with French, German and/or Spanish input?
• 4 F-22P light frigates, primarily with French, German and/or Spanish input?
• 8 Milgem corvettes, similar to Turkish versions?

I still wonder though. If you've read PakDef, it was reported that the French offered the Scalp Naval with the Marlin SSK. Could it be possible that the PN would procure both Marlin and U-214 - in the long-run - to achieve a wide variety of roles and weapon-system usages?

Personally I believe such a project would be a very-long term plan and would heavily depend on the future progress of the Pakistani economy. The PN (IMO) would probably reach such a level - and a level or solid parity against IN - sometime in the 2030s?

the gov will proabbly spread out procurement orders over the next ten years, and the level above could be achieved by 2020

it really does come down to economics

That's not true at all. Every component is built in China (with possible exception of the diesel engine, although I think that is license built). There are several components that are cloned like AK-176 and Orekh radar. But most components are Chinese improvements on linked Russian designs. Rd-93 is a totally different story. China is not building RD-93, it's getting them all from Russians.

The plans have a scheduled timeline of 2015-2019 for the ships to be in operational service which is a span of 12 years. The list is correct and that is how the line up will look and follow the doctrine the PN have set out of indigenous ship building with the help of our Chinese friends and the acquisition of advanced western ships.

Yes I read PakDef frequently and P Shamin comments are all inter related with what I have said above. As for whether the Navy will procure both submarines [Marlin, U-214] this is unknown but we could quite possibly see a split order along with the respective surface vessels from France and Germany. But from what I know the French are eager to bag their share.

The project is long term and has been put forward with the a view to how well our economy is doing and god willing will do better in the future, But bear in mind the acquisition fund is already there so much of what is being talked about will happen.

The current modernisation plans and expansions have been brought about by the recent signings for oil and gas exploration in our territorial waters, the opening of Gwader and the rapid build up of the Indian Navy.







Yes bro.

Thanks Tphuang our Chinese friend. Just a few carrying points the engines I thought were from SEMT Pielstick right? The CIWS is of Russian origin and future frigates will be complimented by the type 9M317 missile which is part of the “Shtil system” right or has that been scrapped in favour of a Chinese variant ship to air missile system?

Also just what is the deal with regards to China sharing improved designs on Russian tech would they be ok with this?

Thanks for your reply.

well, with the expected mass production, I think they probably got licensed production for the engines by now. CIWS has nothing to do with Russians, it's more compared to Goalkeeper. As for the missile, HH-16 is not shtil, despite what some people may think. In fact, the VLS version of shtil hasn't come out yet, but HH-16 basically started off as part of VLS system. China typically takes Russian designs and develop systems based on them, it's not a problem. It speeds up the progress. the 76 mm main gun is one example of this where they took AK-176 and basically modified the turret a little bit and also probably improved guidance and such. the Sea Eagle search radar is another example.

Back to the primary topic at hand:

Turkish Press

Published: 2/25/2007

ABU DHABI - Pakistan is eager to cooperate with Turkey in the area of shipbuilding.
A Pakistani delegation who visited Turkey in January was informed on National Ship Project (MILGEM) of Turkey. Pakistan wants to cooperate with Turkey in building of minimum four corvettes (warships).

Sources said that Turkey is expected to submit its bidding on building of four warships for Pakistan within this month, stating that a delegation from Pakistan would visit Turkey in April at invitation of Defense Industry Undersecretariat and hold technical talks with Turkish authorities.

On the other hand, Turkish National Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul, who is currently in Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates for the International Defense Fair IDEX-2007, held meetings with ministers and general staff chiefs of several countries today.

Thanks.




Just like we had talked about the minimum order will be four and we will be seeing more built at least up to ten.

good to hear about the Milgem! the first corvette for the Turkish navy is coming out later this year isn't it? I wonder what sort of timeline they'd provide for our ships?

MARK and WAZ
whats behind this story.
http://thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=2944

it was posted sometime ago but came in my mind while read this discussion abt future expansion of PN..

Can u guys shed some light on this.

The article seems to be a mix of misinformation and bad reporting bro. The current modernisation plans have a large surface expansion in mind and a SSK expansion with an emerging Naval aviation wing. There is nothing at this point in time that Pakistan plans a SSN and I have enquired about this from both Pakistani and non Pakistani sources. We may see such a program much further down the line depending on our strategic needs but if we were to go ahead with a SSN project it would be known only to a few as such vessels generate negative publicity by the bucket load and such a program would need the technical assistance of the Chinese a great deal.

http://china-pla.blogspot.com/

Thankyou Feng for the Kanwa articles and their translations. Very good site BTW.

From the above link, interesting news regarding PN - courtesy of Feng:

• 4 Jalalat Class FAC inducted (see pic in above link)
• PN interested in procuring Type 054 FFG from China.
• F-22P has displacement of 2500 ton and max speed of 29 knots

Thus far the PN's modernization plans have shaped up like this:

• 4 FFG (Type-054? - 3500 ton?)
• 4 Light FFG (F-22P - 2500 ton)
• 4 Corvette (Milgem - 2000 ton)
• 3 new AIP SSKs (U-214?)
• 2 MRTP-33 FAC w/requirement for 8

selamün aleyküm to my pakistani brothers from turkey antalya city.i have just been member in this forum.as all turk pakistan is my favourite country.we never forget ur helps in our independent war.i ll try to share my ideas in ur forum.

i generally like turkish navy more than land and airforce.this milgem project seem to me excellent.u need small but effective ships against that big indian navy.really they have very big and good navy.after usa navy they can be 2,3 or 4 rank.this milgem ships will contain harpoon missiles and this missiles very effective against ships.there is some working to put vls on our milgem but there is nothing exactly now.i hope pakistan and turkey will be more close in all case.god bless turkey and pakistan.

Thank you brother! We Pakistanis love Turkey and our Turkish brothers and sisters.

I think VLS is a future application to the Milgem or an application of the TF-2000 frigate that would be inspired off the Milgem. The Milgem project will help Pakistan hopefully design her own frigate in the future as well.

God Bless Turkey and Pakistan.

Hello brother welcome to the forum.

I would rather see it as a rival of currently underconstruction next generation P-28 stealth corvette for Indian Navy at GRSE, Kolkata. It is 2500 ton, mainly depends upon stealth technologies.First Indian ship with 100% indgns systems. New gas turbine engine, whole new package of sensors and EW systems, LPI radar etc. 12 of these corvettes projected. First comission to IN by 2009.


PN must bought the Milgem Corvette to counter it. In future battle P-28 and Milgem face-to-face.

I doubt Milgem and P-28 will frequently encounter each other, corvettes are meant for primarily defensive missions. Anyways PN is looking at a minimum of 4 Milgem, pending on requirements and financial circumstances we may see more.

thanks, but there is a question, India and Pakistan are not far away from each other, they are neighbour so there must be a corvettes encounter as well.

The number question is not very powerfull, while the technology rules.

Though the P-28 are primarily designed as a ASW corvette on the stealth design so the enemy surface fleet cannot get it in high sea.

then also it will get Barak-NG as it air defense system and 4x2 Brahmos missiles. But its main weapon will be a new anti-submarine missile.

What is Milgam's stand against P-28 corvettes?

The current Milgem has a 21-cell RAM system for use against cruise/anti-ship missiles; 8 Harpoon Block II and two-triple torpedo launchers. VLS is a future application for Milgem, very likely the PN will go for the Chinese system. It may be capable of using HH-16 SAM and anti-submarine missile by then.

really interesting.

Brahmos vs RAM.
Barak-NG vs Harpoon.

Barak-NG: Its a indo-israeli jv as along range point/air defense system against next generation supersonic missiles. Range 70km.

RAM-HAS: Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) is a small, lightweight, infrared homing surface-to-air missile developed by Germany. Range 7.5km.

the front gun position on the milgem can probably be configured to hold a VLS system like mk.41 (if turkey plans to)

btw will 8 BrahMos fit on the p-28 corvette

weird way to speak...


number/technology/necessity all matters.





umm I'd rather wait for P28's formal details anyways there is details in previous india today magazine.


i seriously have no idea nor i do feel the need to search google, wait till both is in service.


umm 70 km are you sure? it can be 100 as well nothing is known, but let me tell you possibility of barak-2 it engaging Ballistic missiles are high on agenda as well.


Gentlemen,I've read somewhere F22's are coming for sure and Pakistan might go for local production with chinese help.

ISI2003 > I dont think P28 will be armed with Brahmos, rather Klub with terminal supersonic dart, basically too much speculations about its armaments etc etc, let the first one get online first.ASW choppers will be Dhruv ASW Dhruv : Check this one with sv2000 radar and mihir TDS.

As you seen in the picture there is no space for a 2000 ton ship (like the design of Milgem) to have VLS system on it. and its not designed for it.

Yes, P-28 (2500 ton) will ahve 8 (4x2) Brahmos VLS launchers, got the info from the AI-2007 even 4 Brahmos can be put on board a 1800 ton boat as the info said.




lol how? I would rather say 1 F-35 JSF is better than 5 Mig-21!




As for the IT article they missed many thing that are not in the line of previously mentioned news sources like NDTV (shown the interview of GRSE director, one question was about P-28).




Barak is under-development as a point-defense system against low flying targets like supersonic cruise missiles and fighters. Its range is 60-70 km. Dont know where you get the new infos!!

VLS is a future application though. Perhaps not on the current Milgem, most likely a variant of it in the future. However one must note that ships of 2000 ton are capable of using a VLS system, such as the DCN Gowind 200. Pakistan's intentions to be able to manufacture modern combatants in the 2000 to 2400 ton range do lay the foundations for Pakistan to eventually produce a modern surface combatant of its own - with the help of others of course. I expect Pakistani corvettes in the next decade will have VLS.

Let's wait and see.

Erm my friend ships with a smaller displacement of 2000 tonnes have been supporting VLS systems for the best part of over two decades…..Take for example the OLFERT FISCHER [1,320 ton displacement] a Danish corvette belonging to the NIELS JUEL Class which was launched in 1980 now decommissioned supported the Sea Sparrow. What about the The Nakhoda Ragam class corvettes/patrol boats built for Bruni by BAE systems [1.940 ton displacement] these ships host the Sea Wolf system and has wait for it a 16 The cell VLS installed at the forward main gun deck between the main gun and the bridge. Heck check out Lockheed Martins (MK 41 VLS) in the Self-Defense Launcher version which is ideal for corvettes…..

As for pictures it looks tight but the VLS system is on the cards having spoken to our Turkish brothers and they could make space between the main deck and gun or go for a rear outfit.

IIRC Gowind 200 has 16 Sylver-43 VLS for Aster 15, and the corvette has a displacement of 1950 ton. Besides, Milgem is slated to use the Mk.41 VLS system. Now I am not sure if it means on the current model or a heavier variant, the wording on Wikipedia is a bit confusing. However VLS systems have been put on corvettes with displacements lighter than Milgem. Given that Pakistan is looking for manufacturingcapability and technology transfer of the Milgem and F-22P, I imagine a corvette will be developed by Pakistan that will use VLS. Now the VLS could be Chinese, the French Sylver or even American Mk.41 - never know the future.

However I personally think the corvette that will roll out of Pakistani dockyards by the late-2010s will have a VLS system that will use a short-to-medium range SAM like HQ-16 or Aster 15 as well as anti-submarine missile/rockets. By then Pakistan would have built one 2500 ton F-22P and at least three 2000 ton Milgem.