PAKISTAN AFTER GENERAL MUSHARRAF

Strategic, Political, Economic and Social Perspectives

March 14, 2007.

I know some of my fellow PDF members are going to question my patriotism now, however, I would like to assure that I am just pondering over the effects on various fronts should our beloved and patriotic General be disposed off in a cerimonious or uncerimonious manner in the near future. So here goes.



The winds of change are once again picking up pace and the political weather forecast is cloudy with electric storms in the near future.

Numerous factors have accumulated including but not limited to some of the following:

- Pakistan's dismal role in fighting / restraining Taliban forces in its frontier region;

- Pakistan's outright official rejection of unofficial US request to use Pakistani space to launch attacks on Iran;

- Continuous recent communication between General Musharraf and the Irani President;

- Sacking of the Chief Justice of Pakistan;

- Pakistan's renewed covert support for Taliban and the recent attack on Dick Cheney;

Even as the US Congress is repositioning over support to Pakistan's military establishment, President General Pervez Musharraf has suspended the chief justice of the Supreme Court. Iftikhar Chaudhary faces allegations of abuse of power, but the more likely reason for his suspension is that the chief justice's judicial activism was beginning to challenge the military elite. Chaudhary has been declared "non-functional" and placed under virtual house arrest pending a scheduled appearance before a special judicial court on Tuesday. Javed Iqbal, the second-senior-most judge, has been sworn in as acting chief justice.

The move against Chaudhary has prompted widespread disapproval, with the opposition expressing outrage and lawyers and other segments of civil society adding their voices to the chorus. There have also been calls for strikes and protest marches, and the Musharraf-led government faces one of its stiffest challenges since the general seized power in a bloodless coup on October 12, 1999.

Pakistan is due to have presidential elections this year, and Musharraf will seek re-election even though, despite his promises, he still wears a uniform. Pakistan is often referred to as a country where "the government is of the army, by the army and for the army". Musharraf is both president and chief of army staff.

Chaudhary Shujaat Hussain, the president of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League and a former prime minister, commented that the action over Chaudhary was "an internal matter of the Pakistan Army and the judiciary". Chaudhary was appointed by Musharraf in 2005, and Musharraf, wearing his uniform, announced the news of the judge's "misconduct" after the two had had a five-hour meeting on Friday.

This follows extensive media coverage of Chaudhary's son joining the police service despite apparently having failed an English-language entrance paper and of the top judge's alleged abuse of travel privileges, among other accusations. Nevertheless, what is more likely to have brought Chaudhary down is that he was bold enough to try to make the military elite answerable in the court of law.

Thousands of people are believed to have been thrown into secret detention facilities in Pakistan without ever being brought to trial, especially those rounded up in the name of the "war on terror". Many of the detentions have occurred in the restive province of Balochistan, where Pakistan's Military Intelligence has picked up hundreds of youths suspected of affiliation with the separatist and shadowy Baloch Liberation Army. In the past, relatives of the missing people filed complaints with the courts, which then formally informed the Interior Ministry. Routinely, the ministry would simply advise that the intelligence agencies were unaware of a person's whereabouts, and the files would gather dust.

Chaudhary changed this trend. He followed up cases diligently and frequently issued warnings to the attorney general to take action. He also made sure that an army officer serving in the influential Crisis Management Cell appeared to answer for the intelligence forces. As a result, some missing people returned home, and they quickly accused the intelligence agencies of detaining them. Chaudhary ordered all of these agencies to appear in court to face the charges.

Last year, Chaudhary prevented the government from selling off the majority of state-owned Pakistan Steel Mills to a private consortium, claiming that kickbacks were involved at the highest level in the privatization process of the country's biggest corporation.

The event has given the much-scattered opposition the opportunity to mobilize. Pashtun nationalist leader and parliamentarian Mehmood Khan Achkzai has called for a strike on Tuesday in Quetta, the capital of Balochistan. Transporters in North West Frontier Province have made a similar call. Qazi Hussain Ahmed, the president of the six-party opposition religious alliance, the Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal, has called for an all-party conference to devise a single joint strategy for Tuesday, when Chaudhary is due for his hearing.

Domestic turmoil of this kind will provide a test for the White House, which up to now has stood by its ally in the "war on terror" despite Islamabad repeatedly backsliding on promises on democratic change. The Democrat-controlled US Congress is expected to be a bit less tolerant, and might even try to block a deal for the supply of F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan.

It is estimated that the United States currently provides military assistance worth US$100 million a month to Pakistan, and since 2001, when Musharraf turned against the Taliban in Afghanistan, the country has received some $20 billion in assorted aid.

With the US administration becoming increasingly frustrated with Musharraf's apparent slow progress against al-Qaeda and the Taliban and with the Democrats looking for excuses to distance Washington from Islamabad, the Chaudhary incident comes at a bad time for Musharraf.

All this coupled with the recent media leaks (NYTimes) from high ranking Congressmen that the State Department is considering the pros and cons of an "After Musharraf" scenario supports the cloudy weather forecast.

Hence this topic. Started with the objective of pondering over the impact on Pakistan's Strategic, Political, Economic and Social environment should our beloved General be somehow removed from both his positions of President and COA.

Logical comments are invited backed by sound reasoning and basis.

=============================

another article from the international media stated the following:

THE US has indicated for the first time that it might be willing to back plans by elite echelons of the military in Islamabad to oust Pervez Musharraf from power, as the Pakistani President was beset by major new difficulties over his attempts to sack the country's chief justice.
Reports yesterday quoting highly placed US diplomatic and intelligence officials - previously rusted on to the view that General Musharraf was an indispensable Western ally in the battle against terrorism - outlined a succession plan to replace him.

US officials told The New York Times the plan would see the Vice-Chief of the Army, Ahsan Saleem Hyat, take over from General Musharraf as head of the military and former banker Mohammedmian Soomro installed as president, with General Hyat wielding most of the power.

The report adds another dimension to the range of challenges bearing down on the embattled military ruler following his weekend sacking of chief justice Iftikhar Chaudhry, whom he appointed just over a year ago.

Thousands of lawyers clashed with baton-wielding riot police yesterday during a nationwide day of action against the sacking of the top judge. About 3000 lawyers wearing smart black suits and chanting "Down with Musharraf" dismantled barriers in an attempt to stage a sit-in outside the Lahore High Court building.

More than 40 lawyers and 15 police were injured in the clashes. Police repeatedly baton-charged the demonstrators, some of them senior members of the bar, arresting 25 people.

In Islamabad, police barricaded the Supreme Court where the Supreme Judicial Council was meeting in camera to consider as-yet unspecified charges against the chief justice involving alleged misuse of his authority.

There was chaos and confusion as the council began its hearings last night. Having been held virtually under siege and incommunicado in his residence, the chief justice refused to get into a government car sent to convey him to the Supreme Court.

Instead, he stunned officials by starting to walk, surrounded by supporters, and told reporters he rejected any suggestion he had abused his office. Police soon intervened, however, and he was forced into a car and taken to another building before being transferred to the Supreme Court.

As courts across the country remained paralysed in protest, motives for the sacking emerged when it was disclosed that last month Justice Iftikhar said in a speech that General Musharraf could not continue as army chief beyond the expiry of his term as President later this year.

General Musharraf has a highly controversial plan that would have him elected to another five-year term as President by existing federal and provincial legislatures - before general elections are held.

But he also wants to continue as Army Chief of Staff, something that is bitterly opposed by political leaders as well as the international community. The plan would be challenged in the courts, and the chief justice's strong words on the issue may have forced the President to take pre-emptive action to remove him.

The bitter wrangling lends weight to those in the US diplomatic and intelligence community who believe it is time to consider the post-Musharraf era.

The US report suggests a growing disenchantment towards General Musharraf in Washington and indicates that the longstanding view that the alternative to his regime would be chaos and a takeover by extremist Islamic mullahs is no longer ascendant.

The US officials say hardline Islamists have usually not done well in elections in Pakistan and that if General Musharraf were removed, a doomsday scenario would not necessarily follow.

The report could be an attempt by Washington to pressure General Musharraf to take stronger action against militants in Pakistan's border areas near Afghanistan, where the Taliban and al-Qa'ida are operating. But it might also indicate the President's allies in Washington are about to pull the rug from under him.



http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...37-2703,00.html

Good effort Pakistan First. This is definitely an issue that is in the drawing rooms of all policy makers. The second article talks about Gen. Ahsan Saleem Hyat taking over. But if thats the case then either Musharaf knows that Gen Hyat is loyal and won't do any such thing or he will have to follow Gen Zia for Gen Hyat to take over.

I personally think if Gen Hyat is a reasonable man then he is probably better than the politicians we have at this time. These politicians will use every possible mean to get into the office and loot the reserves with both hands and ruin the economy.

I am pretty sure even if some of the corp commanders are with Musharaf, they probably still don't like that he has been the chief and the president for so long. So there could possibly be some resentment among the few. But any coup over Musharaf will have to depend on who's side is the 10 corp comander on. That's a crucial figure and without whose support a war among the corp comanders could break out.

I don't know if Musharaf is going to go but I think Pakistan would stay in safe hands. And I think Musharaf has set a precedence for next generals to follow his economic policies by appointing the right people at the right place. So its likely that Shaukat and his team continue to be pat of the next govt with only change of hands for the presidential post.

Thankyou umiqum,

The recent attack by Islamabad Police further intensifies the issue. Like I said earlier.... the winds of change of picking up pace. hmmmmm.

I don't see anything different. The country is always in one crisis or another. If it;s not threats from americans it's threats from terrorists, if it's not threats from them it's threates froms eperatists, if it's not threats from them it's threats of resignation from opposition and if all these parties are on a break we can rely on India to say something stupid about Kashmir or so forth.

The President may have been heavy handed with thise hwol issue however you all seem to forget the power he has at his hands. He is the COAS, he can enforce martial law. He could stay in power as a total dictator for 10-20 years if he likes. He is trying desperately to allow due process to take place.

We shouldn't expect to see the back of him yet.

1. Terrorists would be active when any ruler stands against US wishes, because all terrorist organisations set up to fight Russians are still linked with CIA in one way or other,

2. Leaders of major political parties run for US support and promise them to serve their intrests batter,

3. India have no balls to go to war with Pakistan and we dont need to worry about it,

4. Musharaf can not impose Martial Law again as it would bring sanctions and badly impect our economy, and military projects, so this option is not available to Musharaf.

5. Musharaf is trying to allow the process wrok but some people in his own team do not want so because of their loyalties with US and would do every thing to make Musharaf weak, so he negotiates with US.

6. No other General would be ready to take over, ultimately politicians would come again which are weak and can not stand US pressure, in case Musharaf have to step down.

My openion is Musharaf would have to do some clean up in his own camp, negotiate with like minded guys and form a new group which is pro pakistan and not corrupt, if he have learned something from recent events, it would not be difficult for it, but I do not see him leaving for another 5 years at least.

From the mountains of Pakistan's tribal areas to the capital Islamabad and up to the insurgent coastal belt of Balochistan province bordering Iran and Afghanistan, pan-Islamists are developing a united front ultimately to take on the West and its allies in the region.

The immediate target, though, is the administration of West-leaning President General Pervez Musharraf. Islamists of all hues are coming together. These include those believing in tribal traditions (the Islamic Emirates of the Waziristans and the Taliban of Afghanistan); global jihadis (al-Qaeda), proponents of Islamic democracy (the Jamaat-i-Islami Pakistan and the newly organized United Islamic Front of Afghanistan), and madrassas (seminaries) led by the Lal Masjid (mosque) in Islamabad).

These groups plan to join hands next Tuesday in a mass sit-in protest in Islamabad against Musharraf.

Several recent catalysts have helped the pan-Islamists smooth over some of their differences, including Musharraf's sacking of his chief justice, unrest in the South Waziristan tribal area, and a protest against vice by students linked to Lal Masjid.

Infighting between a segment of the Pakistani Taliban and foreign militants in South Waziristan that broke out last week has in effect turned into a broader battle against Pakistani security forces. Islamabad intervened by sending in troops to try to arrest or kill militant Uzbek leader Tahir Yaldeshiv.

The shura (councils) of North and South Waziristan put their feet down, and differences between the Taliban and al-Qaeda-linked foreigners have now been shelved to concentrate on battling the Pakistani security forces.

The Pakistani press widely reported Pakistani soldiers being killed in South Waziristan, and the flames of unrest took no time to spread to settled towns of North West Frontier Province (NWFP).

On Wednesday, the Pakistani Taliban mobilized hundreds of men in an attempt to seize control of Tank, the NWFP town nearest South Waziristan. Local police were not able to control the situation, and the Pakistan Army and paramilitary troops were called in. They contained the situation and clamped a curfew on the town, although there are still reports of fighting.

Students against vice

On Tuesday, Musharraf addressed a rally in Rawalpindi and called on the masses to stand up against religious extremism. But only a few kilometers away in the federal capital Islamabad, young men and women associated with Lal Masjid's seminaries of Jamia Hafsa (for girls) and Jamia Faridia (for boys) were engaged in a powerful protest against vice.

The students (mostly women) took to the streets to persuade video shops not to sell "vulgar" movies. The campaign took a turn when the students seized a brothel owner in the Aapara area, where both the Taliban-supporting Lal Masjid and the state's Inter-Services Intelligence are situated. They held the woman hostage in their seminary.

Despite complaints, the government has been unable to do anything about the brothels in the area because of the unholy nexus between high-ups and the prostitutes.

Thus the students took matters into their own hands, much as the Taliban did as they emerged as a power in the 1990s in Afghanistan and in the Waziristan tribal areas.

The students had the full backing of prominent religious personalities Ghazi Abdul Rasheed and Maulana Abdul Aziz, the brothers who run the Lal Masjid and the men's and women's seminaries.

The police tried to broker the release of the brothel owner and, when they failed, they arrested two female teachers from the seminary. In a matter of minutes, students and followers of the Taliban blocked all important arteries in Aapara, and also took two police officers with their official vehicle as hostage.

When Aziz threatened to call a jihad, the two women were released, so the students then released the policemen. The brothel owner is still being held.

Speaking to media, Rasheed explained his feelings on a call for jihad. "The students from universities and colleges and youths from all walks of life ask why we do not call for jihad against a repressive regime, but I always say that the time is not ripe. But when pious lady teachers are punished and arrested for the sake of prostitutes, a call for jihad is imminent."

Rasheed and his brother Aziz command widespread support and are vocal in their backing of the Taliban. The authorities have on several occasions tried to have them arrested, but have always desisted for fear of a powerful backlash, both among the masses and segments of the establishment.

The chain that drags Musharraf

Deposed chief justice Iftikhar Chaudhary is due to appear before a judicial council on Tuesday over allegations of abusing his position. His suspension has aroused countrywide anger and served as a rallying point for both the political and religious opposition to Musharraf.

Many thousands of protesters are expected literally to join hands in Islamabad on the day of Chaudhary's hearing. Most believe that he has been sidelined to allow Musharraf a clear run at retaining the presidency in elections this year, while also remaining army chief.

The occasion serves the Islamists' cause well, and they will be out in force not only in the capital but in other parts of the country.

Musharraf has few choices. He can continue the impossible fight against Islamists, at the behest of Western forces, all the way from the mountains of the Waziristans to the southern port city of Karachi and the deep seas of Gwadar, or switch sides and make a major compromise that could eventually support the emergence of a green crescent in Southwest Asia.

The wily Musharraf, though, has survived many challenges to his rule since taking power in a coup in 1999.

He has plenty of choice.....islamist are not strong....90% of the people don't even support them...how come u concluded that they have power?? Mushy is being very patient with them otherwise he can use a big bamboo up their these islamist arses and you will never hear of them!! In fact I suggest Mushy take the same approach as the Turkish army and hang all these mullah bastards once and for all!! These people are like mad dogs and mad dogs are always shot!!

Mullah bastard is patriotic than a libral bastard who look up to amrika for every move.People don,t support mullah in power alright but they support their other stances whole heartedly for example on occupation of Afghanistan,jehad in Kashmir etc.It is not Islamists who are danger to Pakistan it is NATO occupation of Afghanistan and Indian occupation of Kashmir we have to kick those Dogs out and no libral dog is supporting this cause not BB not NS and by the way how a dictator can be libral?

My take on this is that people who generalize are the actual mad dogs and ba$tards and should be sent to a lunatic asylum somewhere in the Thar Desert never to be allowed to come out of it and spread their bull$hit anywhere and especially on this forum.

Another good read Pakistan First. Well I am just going to ignore what Ceaser said above just so that we can continue to stay rational.

In my personal opinion, this tank incidence is a very dangerous and critical development. Its not even the FATA anymore, and which makes me to think that actually the taliban wanted to show their influence to our govt and say look we can do this to the rest of the country as well. And the reason I say this is because the issue is not that the public will support the taliban in Tank or other cities across the country, but the taliban's ability to sneek in large amount of their supporters and instill a mass scale trouble into our cities which could ruin peace and economic development of our cities and country.

The way I see this problem is that Musharaf is loosing control over his own govt and now several power houses might be resurfacing to serve their own agendas by associating to anti-Musharaf lobbies. The sad part is that the western media has created a hype about Islamists and extremists in Pakistan which unfortunately our own brainless media is following. And this crises is making our people more confused as they see the threats from extremists, but at the same time don't necessarily share the western point of view.

I won't be alone to say that I am against the country following any extremist organization such as Al-Qaida and Taliban but I am also not appreciative of the other extreme the country is going into. And the govt is apparently paying no heed to it which is why we have people going to extreme actions like one with Jamia Hafsa in Islamabad.

No need to write in BOLD dude...we are not blind!

Anyways, Pakistan needs liberalism to progress and become a responsible country in the community of nations. The single bigest problem Pakistan is facing today is these religious illiterates and extremists and their SUPPORTERS who consider themselves the champions of Islam and yet they commit the biggest sin in Islam by promoting the killing of innocents and people who dare to say 'No' to them. These people has "Pre-Historic" way of thinking. No TV, no pictures, no education for women, women are half of men, everyone else is infidel and they are the greatest, no this, no that and some of the craziest and stupidiest viewpoints ever!! These people are like a CANCER. And it is time to do something about it. If it means hanging each and everyone of these bastards by balls and then shooting them in the head then so be it! Ordinary people don't want all this crap....they just want these people out of their lives so that they can progress and live in a safe society that offers opportunities for everyone!!!

Turkey is a great example for us. Although Turkey's military promotes 'Secularism' Pak Military should promote 'Liberalism'. Education is the biggest weapon in fight against these religious bigots because education teaches people the true meaning of being a human being. And that is why these religious bigots who are uneducated prey on people who are not educated. It is high time to systematically wipe these cockroaches off our country because they are the biggest threats Pakistan has ever faced!!

On the contrary we should promote expulsion of NATO from Afghanistan,Iraq and Indian expulsion from Kashmir.We have to look our strategic interests liberalism does not suit our Geopolitical objectives.Islam is a base of unity of Pakistan and basic identity we are muslims Pakistani punjabi sindhi or whatever later.
WE are not ashamed of our religion'' Tumaharey leiyey tumhara rasta aur humarey liyeat hammara rasta''

So are you saying that Islam and education are two different paths??? Totally wrong mister!! Islam and education go hand in hand. Give our people Education and they will bond even stronger!!! This is what Islam is not the Islam these bastards are promoting!

Summun Bukmun U'mun Fahum Layarjióon



Pakistan needs a strong independent judicial system to progress.



The single biggest problem Pakistan is facing today is corrupt politicians working under the protection of a military dictator who is not willing to leave the seat of power and bring true democracy in Pakistan. He is bent on weakening the whole Judicial System of this nation.

Sitting in Sydney you think you have any idea about what role the religious institutions of this nation have played and are still playing ? What is your take on Binoria Madrassah or for that matter Darul Uloom Karachi or for that matter Jamiah Rasheed or lets talk about Jamia Ashrafia. Ever been there yourself to see what goes in there or is your puny knowledge based on the FOX/CNN/BBC reporting ?

You should be careful when you write or say something about anyone. Your opinions and conclusions should always be backed by solid reasoning and sound knowledge. Generalization such as bloody yankees, muslim fundamentalists, jahil mullahs should be avoided at all costs. Because I personally feel like kicking the $hit out of such generalizing Ba$tards. I believe that it is actually these mufin generalizing ba$tards who are the real cancer and should be hanged or shoot in the head.



Please stop wasting our time with words (Secularism and Liberalism) of which you have no bloody clue about.



It is people like you who think from their testicles rather than their brain who should be wiped like cockroaches off our country.

Oh wait, youré in Sydney right?

someone already threw you out ?

when did I say that ''Ilm momin ki miras heiy""
however wearing a bikni and dance around won,t make us to do progress.I am saying is Islam and westren civilization are altogether different

Okay guys, we have already gotten off the topic here. Lets stay focused. Do we have a strong leadership who can continue the strong economic path while trying to clean the mess from the country? Would the next person to be incharge one of teh famous guys or would another hidden pearl be brought upto the scene to run the show.

If Gen Ahsan is going to take over then how is the situation going to be, any better or worst? And if Gen Ahsan comes as a caretaker and holds election then how our current political parties do in that scenario?

I think if Gen Ahsan is brought on the will of US then how do we know if he is going to be better than Musharaf or worst? Maybe he will go two steps further to satisfy US demands which now Musharaf seems to be resisting to some extent.

On the other hand, if elections are arranged, the situation gets even more messier. I think we don't have shortage of good and talented people who are already running the major ministries and the cabinet. But any new govt will more likely be a messy alliance and such people might be sidelined to satisfy political agents in good posts for the sake of political alliance.

But the whole scene could different all together, if the new US administration takes a turn on Musharaf. In that case I think he might get more support from people at home.

English please...thank you!!



Don't be childish....strong Judiciary doesn't mean strong economy, strong military and doesn't provide food for people.....so please cut this nonsense mullah cra.p!




No.....Mullahs have taken over and are the biggest corrputers and liars than any other politicians. Example, some of these mullahs who are anti-western including qazi have their sons and daughters studying and living in the west....so these people are liars and you are supporting them!



Please cut the cra.p I am sure there are a lot of people sitting overseas who know a lot of hell more about the religion than you and people like you sitting there claiming to be champions. It is these so called champions that are destroying the country and have to be stopped! ALSO I CAN'T FORGET THAT THESE ARE THE SAME BASTARDS WHO OPPOSED THE CREATION OF PAKISTAN!!



Solid reasoning huh......Next time get out of your Madrassah and see and hear what the rest of the world thinks about wise guys like you!!




I may be wasting your time for very obvious reason...so don't bother replying....but there are other members here with similar viewpoints....so please change your mullah thinking of "I AM ALWAYS RIGHT" and that "I AM THE BIGGEST MUSLIM" and that "OTHERS ARE INFIDELS" and that "DEATH TO AMERICA"....



Once again....stop talking from your arse and say something logical!!


Now getting back to the topic, I totally agree with this guy!!

I rest my case.

Not going to waste my precious time further with a moron like you.

Coming back to the topic..

These days the media is rife with news of the upcoming political marraige between Musharraf and BB.

If after these seven years he ends up striking a deal with corrupt politician like BB (not to mention that has already has terrorist Altaf Hussain in his coalition government), what credibility will he end up with.

THe best course of action for him (from the nation's benefit point of view) should be to stand for Premiership in the next elections and let go the Chief of Army Staff position and hand it over to General Hayat. He should not under any circumstances strike any deal with BB or Gunja just to hold on to power.



The Political Mullahs have always stood with the military throughout the history of Pakistan and I have this feeling that Premier Musharraf backed by MQM in Sindh, MMA in Baluchistan & NWFP and PML-Q in Punjab stand a very good chance of being elected. Imran Khan can also be convinced to come on board.

Pakistan needs a premier like Imran Khan but it would be sad to see Musharraf ending up with corrupt people like BB and Gunja.

salam

well Pakistan has been progressing in economic point of view BUT it has been destroyed religiously and Religion was da vary point which it was made for ..and bfre musharaff i didnt c any mujras on PTV or kisses on any television...but Enlightened moderation has started showing its signs tht women dun hav any haya ...and all!! its very easy to stay in UK USA and talk abt situation of religion or musharaff but when we c da ppl here back in pakistan who r living in 5000 Rs only den we can imagine hw much we have progressed when we c mr mushraff making golf resorts and parks and giving away luxary apts to retired generals and other ppl on da same tym dere r ppl who dun get anything 2 eat ...!!! and live under XTreme conditions ...!! u ppl hav a glance hw much da prices of simple comodities damn which we PRODUCE have gone up!! for us musharff z gud coz he z nt controling USA or UK but Pakistan and sadly little on dis forum live heree(Pakistan).. yes i am against musharaff coz of his LAME STANCE 2wards RATS and his dad aka US and giving 3rd prefrence to Islam....!! sorry bruvs but for me and sum ppl here RELIGION Z da 1st prefrence..!!! i am nt sayin BB or BS r gud but dey didnt destroy da religious situation back here ...

huh..

Wasalam

P.s no offence to any1 just my suggestion!!!

You should seriously wait before jumping to conclusions....typical mullah style!!

Son.... why don't you go get yourself a candy or something.

Son.... why don't you go get yourself a candy or something.

yar zara haath halka rakhen

Uncle looks like you are into candy and stuff....take it easy on yourself.....too much candy is not good for you as it can increase your Cholesterol levels and blood pressure and makes you a bit "Nutty" and "Delusional" and makes your support total "bastards".......so take it easy!!

Anyway fellows.....lets get serious!! Getting back to the topic Mushy came out swinging today and basically told USA and the West to get fuc--d!! I think he is sending a clear warning to them to stop all this propanganda and to stop supporting BB and nawaz and to stop supporting feeding mullahs on their pay-roll. What is interesting is that he is saying all this after meeting with the top military commanders just a few days earlier. This means that the military has basically told Mushy that they are fully behind him and asked him to take out the bamboo and show it US and others!! This is a very good move!

I might be wrong, but the way I see it:

- Pakistani Media Giants (GEO, ARY, AAJ) seem to be united in their stand against Musharraf and we know that media moulds the public opinion;

- Judiciary seems to be united against Musharraf and calling for his resignation;

- Opposition has picked up its momentum and bringing people to the streets in thousands all over the country. Live broadcasts / recordings are seen of this on all major news channels every single day;

- Nawaz (Gunja) / BB are getting more media coverage since the last few weeks and even US congressmen went to meet nawaz sharif last week;

- Musharraf's position on BB has relaxed during the last couple of weeks and the whole anti-corruption wing set up to investigate Zardari/BB cases was closed down few days back as well as several cases against them were withdrawn by the Government;

- US thinktanks are publishing reports in which post-Musharraf scenarios are being reviewed and analyzed;

- Musharraf is getting ticked-off and threatening to withdraw from 'his' war against terrorism.

................... Tabdeeli ki hawain chul pari hain (as in) winds of change have started blowing.

Yes i would agree with the very first part of your post. i.e. you are wrong.

Your last point needs to be first point, the entire hu ha is because of that.

You are right Musharaf have added enemies, but none of them wants to create the situation of 1977, political parties are just saving face, media is also adopted a middle path and lawyers have refused to join political parties in to their protests.

This all reflects that people understand the "foreign" intrest at this point of time. Although Musharaf needs to decide one way or other but no one would push him to wall, so he have to compromise to US, as US have lost his ground in our politics, no one wants to trust them.

Change is going to happen, you are right, but it wont be as US wants, it would be more towards a national reconciliation.

Although I would love to see a national reconciliation for the greater good of this nation's future, however, would a national reconciliation mean that we will see Musharraf forging alliance with Nawaz and BB ?

I disagree.....if Mushy was desperate he would simply impose a ban on these channels.....example, Kamran Khan's show on Geo was banned. And was only lifted when they promised to behave and in fact hosted Mushy on the programme!!

The military including ISI is fully behind Mushy. Yep only thugs like BB, Nawaz, Mullahs on Washington's pay roll desperately want to believe that there a change is gonna happen but Sorry dude.....THERE IS NO WIND OF CHANGE!!

So you confess that Musharaf imposed a ban on GEO and only when they agreed to toe his line, did he allow them to continue their Kamran Khan Show. Hence proven that he is using arm-twisting dictator tactics to manipulate media. So much for free media.

Hence, my point - Media is united against Musharaf because of the above.

Please don't try to be a smarty, I am not confessing anything!!!....ban on a programme DOES NOT MEAN ban on GEO!! The programme was banned because that guy Kamran continuously commented in the judicial affairs by spreading misleading rumours on the crisis arising out of the suspension of Supreme Court Chief Justice Iftikar Muhammad Chaudhry. Pathetic fool tried to Sensationalise this issue and he went to the point of becoming a CJ himself!! The government acted rightfully and told him to obey the laws.

Tell me something if someone goes out of line and tries to say inappropriate things what do you want the government to do?? Here is an example for you: Don Imus made some racist comments about a black basketball women's team like "“That’s some rough girls from Rutgers...Man, they got tattoos - that’s some nappy-headed hos there.” And he was banned!

The point being people like you don't have any problems when this happens in the West but if your own government takes such actions you people just cannot shut your mouths to the point of being preposterous!!!

Ceaser,

You can not support each and every act of Musharaf, he is a human being and making same mistakes as other rulers do, his action against CJ and media have caused him lot of damage.

Time was more stupid, on one side he is showing US that he got balls and on other side he is making mess at home, which is never a wise thing.

Telling US that we are not their colony was long overdue, so it is a good step, same goes to relations with Russia, that is also a positive step.

Now what many people see is his team is extremely corrupt, incompetent and opportunist, what alternate a military dictator have except to depend on such guys, there is none.

He can neither stand against US wishes alone, nor he can go further ahead with MMA, the only alternate is to negotiate terms with PPP and PML, whatever one says, it is a fact that these are two mainstream parties and without their involvement a common man feels alinated. The issue of corruption of the leadership in two is not much different from present lot, remember SherPao and Faisal Saleh were literly brought from prison floor to take oath as ministers.

Actually I am happy with MMA's behaviour at this sensative time, they are not making much mess as it happens when a ruler goes against US wishes (it is their history) as well PPP and PML also showing sanity.

Now, if Musharaf is sincere with country and himself, he can take clean guys from these parties and get to a power sharing formulae, for that he would have to take off his uniform sooner or later, but this is the only way out for him.

Once you got things in place, the extremists issue would vanish, an SHO can handle them in his area extremely well, if you have seen it when Siph i Sahaba was making mess, the police put all leadership in prison and told the guys to shut up, the day they made any mess anywhere, police was taking out one of the leader from prison and killed him in a fake encounter.

The things were calm in short time.

One thing we have to realise that one man show would not work any further and Musharaf have realised that too, extremism can only be counterd when you got public support and make decisions without getting blackmailed by your allies.

Mate, I am supporting him when I compare him to BB and others. Look with all honesty when BB and nawaz were in power they absolutely ruined the country. This guy along with the PM have done a lot for the country in matters of defence and economy with forex reserves now more than 13 billion. The country is make good progress. The country is at a cross roads as because it has decided to go China's way. At this important time we need someone who is really strong and is willing to make tough decisions and willing to stand grounds against US and other western jerks. He is the right man!

sorry nawaz was much better and sincere leader he can not be compared with bb
1.this jf17 project was negociated by nawaz
2.alkhalid tank project
3,nuclear tests
4.sacrifised his political carier to get face saving for his generals during kargill
mian sahib can be a fool alright but he can never be unpatriotic

He may be patriotic but he sucked big time as a PM and as a decision maker. Remember all these defence projects were initiated at the behest of the military and Nawaz had nothing to do with it. A person like him may run a steel mill but not a country. We need a strong, clever leader and I haven't seen anyone as strong and as clever as Mushy!

Nawaz is a sincere person but quite dumb, we realy need a clever leader, but not Musharaf only, we have some nice guys like Amin Fahim, Shah Mehmood they are strong, claver and capible guys.

Trust me the decision making base has to be broadened.It saves us from shocks the leader like Nawaz is better under the situation it will help the parliament gain more powers,he has learned his lessons that struggle for absolute power and personality based govt is an outdated concept and will not be liked by People of Pakistan and an other Martial law might be in coming.The institutions need to be strong not the personalities.Trust me most of our problems are attributed to strong personalities right from Ghulam mohammad,Sikandar mirza,ayub khan yahya khan ,zia ul haq or even Bhutto.A manmohan singh type of person with actual power with parliament might be a better option

There are pros and cons of both, in our culture you bring a weak leader and a strong parliment, they would always blackmailing governments for permits, contracts and selling jobs, nothing more, have not we experienced it before.

What I would like to see is Musharaf as President, some PPP guy like Amin Fahim (he is a second man not a big personality) as PM, colation of PPP and clean guys from PML Q, Sindh PPP and MQM, Baluchistan Nationalista and PPP, NWFP ANP and PPP while MMA as opposition.

This would give you an ideal government where majority of people is represented but none have absolute power and Musharaf is there as well, finance give to Shaukat Aziz or take him as Senior Minister, so economy dont get out of hands.

If this happens, Pakistan would be as united as it was in 1973.

I agree with you one hundred percent



With all honesty!! Musharraf has surrounded himself with some of the most corrupt people in Pakistan's political history. He has Altaf Hussain and now Benazir Bhutto as sleeping partners with who's help he is ensuring his uninterrupted rein.

Look at my posts over the past few years. I used to be a staunch supporter of Musharraf and looked forward to seeing him in the office for a long time. But his decisions of the last couple of years have opened my eyes that he is no different.

Tell me, who would, in his right frame of mind, support Musharraf blindly, if he has in his party or as allies people who have criminal cases against them in the national and international courts.

When he came, he used to candidly speak against the corrupt leadership of Benazir. Now he is taking her as his political bride. What do you say to that?

Does Nawaz even know where is the nose of JF-17 and where is the nozzle. Nawaz is just as much big of moron as the rest of our politicians. He did sacrifce anything. Do you know what Clinton said about him when he and his ilk camped right outside DC and were begging Clinton to save him from Army.

Nawaz had no political career. Do you remember "Jag punjabi jag teri pag no lag giya daagh? ". So how is this moron any different from Altaf Hussain moron or BB?

It is not a must for politicians to know everything,he was to guideline on policy which was simple and fare
1.Self sufficiency in defence production

2.No more loans ,no kashkol
3.look east instead of reliance on west
4.Musharaf was against nuclear test but that moron stood the ground
5.Clinton is not reliable witness that pure americanism symbol devoid of any morality
6.the gernails and pentagone together planned Kargill to bring INDIA on knees infront of US and punish Nawz sharif for nuclear tests,that moron ran to america to save his country being declared terrorist,that moron ran to clean the dirt created by gernail of course he is moron other wise he could have given statment or ordered Musharaf hold the hights and if necessary die their it would have been our Army who would have got insulted the ganja bewaqoof took it on him so that his jawans can look up
7>jag punjabi jag failed in punjab anyway that elction was won by PPP.

Thats the problem. I can make policies like "self sufficiency" and "honesty". My neighbour's dog can too. Noone implemented them. I have seen thousands of yellow cabs rusting in huge junkyards in Karachi Site Area. Thats called self sufficiency? Who pocketed the money ever asked yourself?

Ganja is baiwaqoof and just as suceptiable to corruption as anyone else. His famous PIA flight from Lahore to Islamabad are hard facts that i am personally aware of from people who worked for him and still support him. The amount of money that was being wasted in nihari and biryani gluttony while all of Pakistan was eating grass to pay for our "dhamaka" doesnt reflect too good on him.

Faizan sahib, it's really really sad that after 7-8 years we still have to go back, dust our dinosaurs like BB,Ganja and Altaf Hussain and debate who is better and who can we live with. It's utterly shameful we the people of Pakistan cannot find anyother alternative. Maybe we do deserve these leaders.

He was set up by Yanks and our Generals three of them i know,Nihari or sri paiy etc sharif family won,t indulge such a low class corruption, have you ever traveled on Lahore-pindi motorway,Gunja brought self sufficiency with the help of china into Pakistan or at least he was working towords it.His sincerety can not be equated with Altaf hussien or BB both are traitors with due appology.He is typical Punjabi middle class mentality type person who,s everything is Pakistan.At this very crucial juncture in our gistory we need
FOOL but patriotic FOOL to lead us.Not a wise guy some time standing the ground is a must which Musharaf is not capable off.

Nawaz family did indulge in alot of corruption. After your clean bill of health i won't even try to argue with you about it given now i know how color blinded you are to the actions of Shareef family.It's a fact he put a camp outside DC to save his skin from Army begging the same yanks.

He is a fool and he is a selfish corrupt moron. He wanted power and more of it. "Heavy Mandate" mantra when he knew perfectly well that only 37 percent of total eligible voters actually voted because the rest were so sick and tired of him, Altaf and BB.

The Nihari and Biryani gullotny is a fact at the expense of taxpayers. Motorway and self sufficiency, good one!! He needed to build a motor way from the sea port to the industrial zone in Punjab. Not from his home town to his office in Islamabad. Why hundreds and thousands of cars were imported and then left to rust in junkyards in his yellow cab scheme? Is that how you achieve self sufficiency? Do you know Sartaj Aziz admitted that govt lied to get 600+ million dollar IMF loan which was mercilessly squandered by govt and we the citizens of Pakistan were at the edge of default due to all this corruption?

Why woudl you care. You have other things to care about. For example "middle class Punjabi" back ground of Shareef. And then we complain that why Pakistan is so behind. It is behind because we cannot get ourselves out of our ethnic and tribal loyalties. We actually deserve people like shareef,BB and Altaf to squander our hope and future.I rest my case.

Cars rusted because he was out of job ,our imported prime minister,moen qureshi just discontinued the scheme along with motor way.Which industrialized area you are talking he started the gawader project or at least gave approval.Malpractice in business and corruption in government is altogether different and by the way how your beloved musharaf has educated his child in USA.
We were never at the edge of default before nuclear test but after the sanctions yes but he could have got 5billion and there would be no default just no nuclear tests.Unfortunately middle class punjabi has no Jinnah por or sindhu desh or anything else to fall back he lives and die with Pakistan.Ethnically Ganja is a Kashmiri not Punjabi
but he is merged in Punjabi culture like so many UP mohajirs you can,t diffrentiate them from other Punjabi,s

Cars were rusting from the very time they came in. They stayed there noone was going to afford them. They were bought in without counting the actual number of users.

And why would you buy such a huge number fo cars from outside the country while you are taking pains to make a point about self sufficiency. That flies in the face of self sufficiency argument. The whole deal was about making quick buck.

Musharref's child has been US before he was president or even COAS. I never heard of any business corruption charges agianst him. Ettefaq foundry's tales are very famous on the other hand. Entire railway engines were melted for the benefit of Ganja and his mills.

And that Punjabi middle class rehtoric is very much that....rehtoric. Who do you think is the dominant and major province who has constantly benefitted from Pakistan and played major part in all it's functions?? Why the heck would Punjab want to dream of a separate homeland?? But yes do hear about Seraikis talking about their own province.

You are the one who has this standard of "punjabi middle class" to give certificates of ptariotism. Why not let their actions speak for it? If what you say was the case you wouldn't see any evil things small or big happening in province of Punjab. It's about time baba ji you take of your ethinic color glasses and start judging ppl on their actions and not their constituency.

hi baby,
it is not easy,The cars even if in the huge numbers what it speaks of is mismanagement not corruption.
Musharafs even if he was born a general and had free ration all his life might not be able to afford his son,s education in America.
I am not trying to give cirtificate to anyone but fact is that most of punjabi middle class and even lower middle class is so obsessed with Urdu and Pakistan that they don,t speak punjabi with their children but urdu anyhow
I am hearing you quite loud but continue.
About malpractices of Itefaq foundry Benazir government almost did head stand to find anything against it but found nothing.Punjab has voted bhutto,benazir several times so don,t try to blame them being ethnic based it has never been and would never be how ever linguistic based politicians have no place in Punjab.
You want to sound as if punjabi is exploiter of rest of Pakistan keep your facts streight
1.Qaid-i-azam gujrati sindhi
2.Liaqat ali-Mohajir
3.Nazimuddin khowaja -Bengali
4.Ghulam muhammad--Punjabi
5.Sikandar mirza ---mohajir
6.Ayub khan -----Pashtoon
7.Yahya khan-----persian speaking Qazalbash
8.Bhutto --sindhi
9.Zia------ Punjabi
10.Ishaq khan----Pashtoon
11.BB --sindhi
12.Nawaz sharif ---Kashmiri
13.Pervez musharaf ---Mohajir\
Please don,t try any ethnic nonsence next time it will give away your origin