Lets see what the overwhelming opinion is!!!

only f*cking indians would have voted in favour of this trade.


WE CAN SELL OUR ITEMS to indians BUT NEVER BUY FROM THEM .

BECAUSE

ONCE WE START , indian GOV. WILL GIVE ENORMOUS SUBSIDIES TO THEIR INDUSTRY TO CRIPPLE PAKISTANI LOCAL INDUSTRY AND OUR GOVERNMENT IS A BUNCH OF OPPORTUNISTS THAT THEY CAN OPEN PAKISTAN FOR india FOR HANDFULL OF DOLLARS.


NEVER , EVER BUY FROM indians.

You are half right and half wrong, yes we can not have an open trade with India, but controlled trade have no harm, we are strenghtening our agiculture base and need outside market for export, India is suffering from worst shortage of food items, we can export the extra produce to them, at the same time we can import some steel and things like that to ease our local prices in construction sector.

What is ultimately going to happen we all know, we can never be friends and end of the day we have to get in to an ugly war because of Indian policies and hindu extremist mind set, but at least feed them before that happens.

controlled trade is just a beginning. time will come when the controls will erode and trade will become more or less open. but that would take time. sections of pakistani business could really benefit from trade with india just as indian trade would. a close example is how sri lankan tea, pepper and cardamom have flooded indian market and lowered the prices. despite the protests from indian farmers, it is a fact and they have to develop ingenious ways like diversification to the survive and flourish. of course, bangladeshi and sri lankan industries have to contend with cheap indian automobiles and three-wheelers. but that is the how trade works. indian outsourcing companies are opending in colombo and dhaka and even as far as manila, distributing a slice of the multibillion outsourcing pie. why not pakistan benefit?

you are right, mir, pakistan can import steel, cement etc if there is a price differential. as u said india is importing wheat and sugar to control domestic prices. that is reciprocity.

as you can see the global economy has both india and pakistan in its stranglehold and no country can any longer chart its own territory independently. the 1980s when india began accepting massive world bank loans, india got integrated and its only time when full rupee convertibility comes into being. the conservatives can only delay, not prevent that. and just like india, which despite its size and resources, failed to stem the tide, pakistan has also succumbed. economic restructuring for pakistan is already a fact. i do not believe anybody can say that once the west will not extract its pound of flesh for the massive aid in whatever name (war on terror etc...) it pumped into pakistan. pressure to denationalise etc is an outcome of that and even iftikhar chaudhry, whatever his ideological leanings, will be able to block that in the long term. if he comes to power... at the end of long domestic unrest, he will also have to toe the line. patriotism etc are just lofty words and global economics does not think much of it.

the indian situation is not different. the privatization zeal of the rightwing bjp is famous.

i do not believe it a coincidence that more and more south asian countries have non-career politicians at the helm.. like musharraf and shaukat aziz in pakistan, singh and abdul kalam in india. that makes it easier for the west to control the economies.. though not overtly.

my point is that there is hardly any possiblity for any economy to remain insulated. look, even the massive chinese economy has to keep showing from time to time that it intends to open up in near future, though it dos not matter when it really does that.

in india, there is always a debate who next after infumbent pm. even when the man/woman on the saddle is it his/her peak, the debate does go on. i believe it to be a healthy aspect of any polity. and eventually, more people in pakistan will begin talking about who after musharraf. its juvenile to shut out any such throughts. trade reforms will also go hand in hand with that.

Trade with india means commitment of suicide.

Pakistanis are widely known to sell themselves to anyone for pennies.

Once trade starts , indians will bribe Pakistani bureaucracy and custom officials to get free hand in their export.

I think you seem to forget when in the days of nawaz sharif , trade with india resulted in the skyrocketing of prices of sugar.

SO , NEVER START THIS , ONLY EXPORT , NEVER IMPORT. indians ARE VERY SHREWD , THEY WILL BUY FROM YOU ONLY WHEN WE BUY FROM THEM.

NEVER EVER TRUST THEM. MIND U indians are more patriotic than Pakistanis . IT IS A SAD REALITY.

Can we compete against the "Bhanias" in business? Don't think so. After they have finished with us we will be economically enshackled like what the imf did to us. We only just escaped from Bhania clutches in 1947 why would we want them to recontrol our lives, for that is what will happen. They will then entice us with cheap money luring us by our greed. Slowly and systematically they will destroy our jobs and markets and take over our industries and denegrade our religious values (what little we have). Then like in the UK we will be just burdened with debt for generations to come. Buying Buses is just the begining brothers, don't be fooled. We must put a stop to this NOW before its too late. Don't think any amount of control will work.

I am totally unable to understand what was your point in such a long post !

Where did you got the facts that Pakistan can import steel and cement from India if there is price difference?

Pakistan is one of the big exporters of cement and exports millions of tonns cement to India every year beside supplying to UAE, Dubai, and other countries, you need to look in to some trade facts and then post your comments.

Once again, our cement industry is still undergoing expension, in next couple of years we would be one of the biggest cement exporter in world because of our natural resources.

Comming back to steel, with boom in economic activity our steel and steel product industry is not able to meet the demand, while China is sucking steel from world around while India have very cheap labour almost next to free and Indians around the world gather garbage from around the world and sort out scrap which can be sent to India, it gives Indian steel an edge and batter prices, obviously we can import steel from India.

Next is your theory that with time trade will become free, you absolutely have no idea what factors decide inter state tarde, wars, occupations and politics are directly related to trade intersts and unless the political relations are stabe there would not be any free trade or free movement.

It again goes back to Kashmir issue, and even Kashmir issue is resolved, we have more then that conflicts with India both political intrests and economic conflitics, no body can even dream of a free trade at least in next 4/5 decade, or unless there is some revolution in India which changes the ruling classes in India who want to have peaceful relations with neighbours.

I think it will be a good idea if the current trade stats and trend were shared along with this thread in order to have a discussion

This is the stat officially produced by India on trade between India and Pakistan






Also, need to ponder why Pak is importing from India- Cost Factor

Also which other countries would Pak like to or can trade with (on the same items) to reduce the trade from Ind.

I am not sure what is the exact number of "allowed items" to be imported from india but I believe it is around 900, most of the stuff includes things like batal leaves, spices, and things like that, there is a little which is of economic or social importance.

You have a point here...lets see the data

wtf , there was half a billion dollars of imports from India in 2004 -2005?

Selling the soul of Pakistan for rupees, how pitiful.

Guys...here is stat in $$$$

I dont want to contributed a single paisa in bindian economy, No trade with bindia is best in Pakistan interest, We should more concentrate open trade with China, their product are meeting the international standards, Raw material are available on lowest prices, and the best thing if someone from gov push we should have home business like China, which can make a big difference.....

If you can read properly then go through the list, it is ame thing, cows, pan (which is included invegitables), spices, chalia, some chemicals and rubber products.........what is of strategic importance in list? Suppose if we stop this 500 million trade what impact it will have on Pakistans economy or consumer market?

Lol............I am not wondered that you are delusioned, being Indian its normal, the "Air Craft" you have mentioned, I dont think you are producing anything like Air Craft for own use what to talk about exports.

May be it might LCA..............lol But I would admit that we import air crafts from India for your national pride.

The category includes a number of items related to transport and volume is 0.21 millions.

In another category you can see cement as well, while India is importing cement from Pakistan......lol, you need some educated people in your foreign trade department.

Mir-

1- the data above was to support your point and not go against.
2- I am not an Indian Neither Pakistani (please cut your rhetorics)
3- I am currently working in India and in April 2008, i am scheduled for my stint in Pakistan for an IT based project.

Now can we come back to a sane discussion by looking at the $$ that your country can save by importing the items from other countries...may be China ??

Also considering that the items exported list is incorrect..can any one have other data source that can be used ?

I have to disagree with you on this one. trade helps both sides develop. I believe Pakistan's future depends on export oriented growth. true this then means we have to import some things from india but so be it. we should always aim to increase our exports and sell in whatever country we can. you give more jobs and more incomes to Pakistanis that way.

No offence bro but it is easy to sit in a comfortable surrounding and say how trade with India is wrong and we shouldn't import anything from them etc etc but the fact of the matter is that two-way trade with India (or anyone else for that matter) provides Pakistanis with jobs and incomes. that is the only way we can ever hope to achieve economic growth....At some point we either have to drop this prejudice against trade with them and others or learn to be happy in our poverty.

regards.

There was nothing funny in my post, as you mentioned that Pakistan is importing Aircrafts from India (look at your post above) so it remided me our delusioned Indian friends and I can assume that only aircraft India is producing is LCA, we surely are importing that.

You need to read my post above that it is strategic intrests of nations which decide the trade, it is not $$$$, just tell me, we can save a lots of $$$$ if India imports JF 17 from Pakistan and Pakistan buys Argun Tanks, is it possible?

As long as we have unresolved issued with India and war is not an impossible option, ther can be no free trade, but just items like spices, betal leaves and so on, which even pulled out from market do not impect a common conumer.

There is no other option or view which would make sense, you have any suggesation, plz enlighten us.

By the way, it matters little that you are Indian or working in India, you are always welcome to Pakistan.

You know what Mir- thanks for your prompts on Aircraft export stuff in that list.

I went back to the article....and behold...the article says "Working Paper no 182"... Just below what i have posted there is another section where i guess the data has been corrected.
http://www.icrier.org/pdf/WP182.pdf

It does not makes sense anymore to refer to this article. my bad !!!

Other than the Export Items list other data is correct i guess as its reflected on official Pakistan sites.

Coming back to the discussion- I agree on what you are saying on the trade between India and Pakistan. and if you see the trend since 1996....the trade has more to do with the domestic need or crisis.

Consider this ...
In 1990, Pakistan imported to tide over an onion and potato crises, and again Pakistan imported 50,000 tons of sugar from India on an emergency basis in 1997. Likewise India has also depended on Pakistan for sugar, potatoes, onions, and chillies at a time of shortage. Pakistan had a bumper crop in chickpeas in 2003. In April 2003 alone Pakistan exported US $ 4.3 million of chickpeas to India. Trade in agricultural commodities between the two countries could bridge the short term supply shortages caused due to seasonal crop fluctuations.


Thanks for your Welcome Note....I look forward for my visit to your country next year :)

Ok let me try to explain you about import of these items to Pakistan.

We have four seasons and agri products are also seasional, while the climate changes with regions, so in some regions these sesional veggies and stuff is still available, it doesnt make these itmes as "Necessary" items, I mean if you dont eat vegitable of your choice and take meat or chicken insted.

The rise in imports of such items is because of economic boom in Pakistan which is followed by change in consumer behaviour and batter spending capacity, it doesnt transforms in short.

Our exports to india are Cement, Chemical, machinary parts, Wheat, some veggies and things like that, but keeping in view the extreme food shortage in India, we can have a big share by supplying them necessary food items.

But this is not possible in current situation, however if NAXAL revolution is successful, they would not be expensionists like present Upper class Hindu extremsts regime, or there is change in Indian border, say Seven States become Indiapendent or Asam or something like that, then we will have much batter relations and more options of mutual trade.

the thing is open trade directly means stretigic relations and it dont seem possible at this point of time.

I THINK YOU DONT KNOW THE PSYCHE OF THESE F*CKING indians.

The enormous amount of subsidies that are being given by indian gov. to their industry is nothing in comparison to what Pakistan is giving.

indian goods are far cheaper and will flood Pakistani markets thus destroying our industry.

ALSO , SOME DAYS BACK , THERE WAS A REPORT , that even in the items in which india has opened itself to PAKISTAN for trade , there are so much procedural hurdles and indirect fees that the cost of Pakistani products become higher and ultimately Pakistan loses advantage.

COME ON ! man , think , you dont know one thing , indians are far more patriotic than Pakistan. this is a sad reality.

They will never allow PAKISTANIS to capture indian market . why hindu is called banya?

one more incident , i tell you.(READ THIS CAREFULLY AND UNDERSTAND IT )

IN 1999 , WHEN PAKISTAN BECAME SHORT OF SUGAR , indians SOLD PAKISTANIS SUGAR AT EXPENSIVE PRICES THAN THE WORLD PRICES.

THE REASON THEY GAVE WAS THAT , IF PAKISTAN WILL BUY THIS SUGAR FROM ANY OTHER COUNTRY , IT WILL COST THE SAME DUE TO TRANSPORTATION CHARGES.

NOW , HERE , TODAY IN 2007

indians ARE BUYING WHEAT FROM PAKISTAN BUT ON LESS PRICES AS COMPARED TO THE WORLD.

REASON IS THIS THAT THERE WILL BE LESS TRANSPORTATION CHARGES SO WHY WE BUY IT AT EXPENSIVE RATE.


JUST LOOK AT THEIR SHREWD , DOUBLE PSYCHE AND GUESS WHAT WE ARE GIVING THEM WHEAT AT THESE LOW PRICES. THIS IS OUR SENSIBILITY

AND

WE WANT TRADE WITH india. WAKE UP MAN !



ALSO NOTE FOLLOWING TRADE FIGURES. FROM india's website

Exports to Pakistan by india in April-December 2006 stood at $980.33 million, while imports amounted to $247.48 million.


AND WE THINK TRADE B/W india and PAKISTAN will be FRUITFUL FOR PAKISTAN

WAKE UP !.

I am not sure if this story is true. Even if it is true I dont see anything wrong with it. Thats how markets are supposed to work.

Sellers try to sell their products at the highest possible price and the buyers will try to buy at the lowest price.

Its possible that India got a better deal in both the circumstances but there could be other factors at play.

May be in 1999, India could be the only country with surplus sugar. And, in 2007, Pakistan is probably not the only country with surplus wheat. Both transactions could have been favorable to India but why is it India's fault? Unless you want to blame it on Indians being more shrewd, as your words suggest.

Instead of blaming India for all the problems, you should look if there is mismanagement on part of Pakistan's officials.

hey hey if ur indian , i can understand ur feelings but sorry I AM PAKISTANI , PROUD AND PASSIONATE PAKISTANI.

I will think in terms of what is suitable to Pakistan.

In 2006 , April to December period cost Pakistan trade deficit atleast 3 times more than our exports to india.

As far as wheat import from Paksitan is concerned , today in world market there are many sellers of wheat but main reason of importing Pakistani wheat is because of less transportation charges.
This was not taken into account by indians in 1999.

your may be theory is a farce. BOTTOM LINE IS the trade with india has never been in Pakistan's interest and will never be .

WE DONT WANT OUR ECONOMY TO FELL HOSTAGE TO india. SIMPLE.

IT IS UNFORTUNATE THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF TRAITORS IN PAKISTAN BUT STILL THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WILL BLUNT any indian MOVE TO INVADE PAKISTAN ECONOMICALLY AND PHYSICALLY.

I’m glad you bought up the sugar issue as some on here won’t know much about it and it just goes to show their attitude. Trade should be kept to a minimum with them and we shouldn’t go out of our way to do them any favours. Nether the less there will be more trade in the future especially with India’s food shortage problems.

Shair, I am not denying that. You should be vigilant and should work to get a fair deal. In today's world, the onus is on you to fight for it rather than expect that the other side will be nice to you.

All I am saying is that India did what is right for it. It tried to get the best deal for itself. I thought that our officials are corrupt and inefficient too. But this incident made them look good.

How can we trade with Indians who are stealing our lives , water and Land?

Note the comment from Tore:

"Mere bhaio, its very important that Pakistan liberate Kashmir. First of all Pakistanis should understand why Kashmir freedom strugle is so important.

1. India is occupying a large Pakistani area, maybe almost large as Punjab.

2. India is torturing our brothers, sister, childrens and elders in Kashmir. People are killed brutally and girls raped and gang raped by Indians.

3.
Punjab is heartland for agricultur in Pakistan, almost behind all the food production in Pakistan, like Indian-Punjab in India, and earlier our agricultur areas were watered by the rivers Ravi, Chenab, Satluj in Punjab. Now India has turned our irrigation water away from Pakistan into its own area. As a result of that Pakistani food production and agriculture a facing huge problems. If India continues blocking water away from pouring down in pakistani rivers pakistani agricultur land will dry up.

In drought conditions the irrigation channels serve like some vast arterial system, offering lifelines to the region's agricultural land, and India is with other words strangling pakistani agriculture, wich Pakistan cant afford, else pakistani nation will die away, therefore its also very important to liberate Kashmir. Cause all rivers are comming from Kashmir. Thereore mere bhaio, join this freedom strugle with full force."

The ultimate aim of making trade is to make money
so countries will try to export as much as possible and import as less
as possible, its common sense. the idea is to keep a balance.

And yes, governments do give enormous amount of subsidies to local industries,
indian goods are far cheaper and will flood Pakistani markets!

As your economy improves, your manufacturing cost will drop and
your export will increase and import will decrease,
good example is China whose export to US is more than its import and so it has
stock-piled its $ foreign exchange reserves.

So put aside your natinalistic sentiments and try to welcome
foreign investments/trade between both the countries.

As some one else said its a 2-way-bridge....

Also to Mr.dildaar I see that your location is in UK!
your justifications for not doing trade with India are superb!

India is on the way to become a super power and dont cares who wants to do trade with us and who do not wants, the Asian tiger is awake now whole world will begging for trade with India. Just like united States now every country wants to do trade with them and India will take over US economy shortly, why should we worry?

He is nuts.

This guy looks like a Pakistani in disguise.

The King has spoken!

Old king cole was merry ol soul, and a merry ol soul was he (?)
He sent for his pipe (charsi), he sent for his clown (twister), and he sent for his fiddler three (roger2, Rocket, and the_greates).

Yo Indian tiger, are you really the king, or just a Pu$$y cat?

why americans and europeans are dying to trade with u ?

do u know? u really a nut , kings molested boy ?

it has been the policy of west to help those who share their ideology and isolate those who dont.

They want u indians as a deterrant towards china.

u are one pawn in this whole chessboard. u will not be allowed to breath only a little bit more then required.

That is why US and EU are opening their companies in India, you think they will destroy India and their own business here, get a life, figure out how big population India have and every country wants to sell their products in India apart from outsourcing. We are not going to US ot EU to do business they come to India and open McDonalds, Wall Marts, Burger Kings and Coffee Beans, you name it and you find in India.

Yes, yes they want to open burger king and McDonalds to feed your poor and pathetic people. Now it all makes sense why some McDs are closing down cause it's your rat infection.

You so pathetic they coming to Bhindu land cause of your cheap ass labor working below wages, lol, in gutter conditions. They know full well your population is only good for call-centers.

No personal attacks and you need to follow the rules.

Dear Mod, this is unfair, he started abusive language on my each post, there are so many posts where he have used abusive language but I have tolrated. You have not asked me the reason before giving me warning!

instead of taking things in your own hand, you should report any abuse you have or you might post. this is what the rules says

I will report all his posts where he have been abusive.

Why don't U stop being a troll yourself.

superpower my ass!

That was an idiotic response. India knows if it does try something funny ISI will make short work of bombay and Delhi... Take a chill pill.

i remember one of MirBadshah's signatures....

Philosopher is:

"Sitting in a call centre, answering American's calls, telling their account balances, thinking that he has conquered the world......"

none

QUOTE(Skull-Buster @ May 27 2007, 08:48 AM) [snapback]908515[/snapback]

i remember one of MirBadshah's signatures....

Philosopher is:

"Sitting in a call centre, answering American's calls, telling their account balances, thinking that he has conquered the world......"

Its not just call-centers, there are actual products being developed in India by MNC's becuse of the low cost
and high availability of professionals, some examples of R&D are

Adobe' sContribute 4.0
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2130437.cms

Intel's Centrino
http://infotech.indiatimes.com/Tech_News/N...how/2058799.cms

Intel's chip manufacturing
http://www.crn.com.au/story.aspx?CIID=26132

Orace's presence in India
http://www.oracle.com/global/in/pressroom/factsheet.html

SAP
http://www.sap.com/india/index.epx

DaimlerChrysler
http://www.mercedes-benz.co.in/aboutus.htm

Microsoft
http://www.microsoft.com/india/indiadev/

Sun Microsystems
http://www.blonnet.com/2005/05/07/stories/...50701580500.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu7djabBovk

Cisco
http://sify.com/news/internet/fullstory.php?id=13325191
http://www.blonnet.com/2004/09/21/stories/...92101790700.htm

And dont redicle call-centers despite all the hypocracies and fun around it, it still creates jobs for
lot of Indians.

Sitting in a call centre, answering American's calls, telling their account balances, thinking that he has conquered the world......


Its better to sit and answer American calls rather than to redicule others!
conquered the world? May be not, but large foreign investment atleast creates jobs.

I am just curious to know the development of actual IT products in pakistan by MNCs
Just go to any MNC and search for the location and you would find it has an off-shore office in India
and China where apart from call-centers, some actual development is done.
Are there any IT-products developed in Pakistan by MNCs? anything apart from call-centers?

and please dont direct me to hinopak website

Anyway lets just stick to the topic, - trade between the countries is beneficial for both the countries.
its a 2-way-bridge and dont expect any favours from either sides.

Check my previous post on trade between 2 countries
http://pakistanidefenceforum.com/index.php...mp;#entry908064

Using silly signatures, fancy font size and racial slurs is not going to make a big difference

to kya nan kabab ki dokan kholnay say tumhara bharat mahan ho gya

stupid as* hole.

we need to grab some of that call centre market. and that IT market. There are a lot of graduates in india that will work for almost pennies compared to an american who wants holidays, sick pay, paternity leave, money to do up the office, this that and the other. There isnt much chip manufacture going on but AMD and Intel will jump when they think the time is right.

Back to the topic though, free trade would be a good idea, because its a step forward, but realistically if trade was free, how many things would pakistani's get from india? What benefit if at all would it have on the nation? What is the trade situation like right now? Is it open, closed or just sort of porous?

as regards , the number of items imported from india , volume of trade, Pakistani trade deficit , everything is mentioned in detail on page 1 of this thread.

to brief you , Pakistan suffered a loss of more than 700 million $ to india in trade last year. TRADE WITH india is NOT beneficial for PAKISTAN.

How so? Any sources or somewhere i could read up on this?

Much obliged.

Anyway as i was saying above, AMD are probably more india hungry than any other chip maker because they are losing money and business fast. The newest nvidia chips are better than amd's and same goes for the processors, untill amd show the world a true quad core processor.

Anyways, i've voted no because if they wont return the favour, sod them.

AMD will hit back with Barcelona (my city) to finish of recent monopoly of intel.

This year we have bumper wheat crop, the best ever potato's harvest and cotton is estimated to be second biggest in history with 3 million acres crop, all this has happened because of the pro agriculture policy of geovernment and fist time in history farmers have got reasonable prices, if this continues we would be one of the world's biggest food producers along with diary in comming years.

Best thing to do is allow food exports to India where there is sever shortage of food and increaing rapidly and secondly ban the use of Pan and Chalia in country, just look at the figures of these two items which we import from India as veggie and you will be surprise to know how much foreign exchange we spend to paint the wall of every public buliding and road.

Brother , Pakistan lacks a demand and supply assurance organization.

The export of agricultural items must be done in a systematic manner than haphazard one to ensure stability in prices at home.

When government announced wheat export , the prices of wheat shot up artificially due to hoarders and exporters.

This resulted in agitation against government. Resultantly , government banned wheat export.

Unless these loopholes are plugged , our agricultural exports will not be sustainable.

HOW TO INCREASE AGRICULTURAL PRODUCTION

Government is installing desalination plant at gwadar with capacity of 200,000 gallons per day. It is costing Rs. 100 million.

1) Government should divert atleast Rs. 50 Billion in the current year's PUBLIC SECTOR DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME (PSDP which is around Rs. 500 Billion to the installation of DESALINATION PLANTS.)

2) The desalination plants should be installed at :-

I) Along coastal belt i.e . Karachi to Gwadar .( this will help agriculture in coastal areas especially palm trees cultivation resulting in self reliance in palm oil production )

II) In lower punjab and sindh where underground water is brackish to give the local farmers enough water to cultivate land and for drinking purposes. This will also help eradicate gastro disease in interior sindh.


3) Government should drastically reduce electricity rates to farmers so that their costs of production decrease and margins of profit increase . (like india where farmers are getting cheap electricity)



Government PSDP must be utilized in an efficient manner and in profitable projects that also help in better living standards for local population.

Karachi is currently drinking what I'd call 'gutter ka paani'.

Karachi needs 5 desalination plants on an urgent basis. Gwadar can start out with 1.