A very good comparison post. It lacks the numbers but nevertheless a good comparative post. The reason why I am insisting on the numbers is to keep it simple for everyone to see. Once politicized, this thread will end up being a disaster by the P.H.Ds in politics wanabe members and their 1,000+ excuses. As you may be aware already that people in other threads are picking on me and reading this thread as well showing it to their bosses, yet, still not replying here. Lol.

I think PakistanFirst's reply in post number 100 is as good as mine will be.

Yes I agree with everyone its all good news but how do we compare to Vietnam and Thailand? They are developing but look thier cities they have many things which we wont have even in next 2 decades!

We must not celebrate every little thing we need to start making progress on a GRAND scale, ie flyovers, mega-bridge, subway, expressways, airports, ports, manufacturing cities the whole lot.

Vietnam has designer streets with names like Louis Vuitton does Pakistan cities have such shops? No. Do we even have decent shopping centre in Islamabad? No.

Any great news for the progress I am very happy but we need to make much more than this!

When did you visit Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad last bro? Yahan to goray visit karkay lambay chooray positive articles likh rahay hain janab.

Bro I go Pakistan every year, apart from this year-I was in Pakistan last summer in 2006. I go mainly Islamabad but have been to Lahore before 4 years ago.

You know Seuol and Karachi was at same level in end of 1950s, look Seuol today and Karachi! One is a economic powerhouse of Asia the other most populated city in Asia without subway!

That would explain a lot, go to Lahore and Karachi next time you go and you will see a huge difference.

Ask some women in your family to take you shopping for western clothes, you'll see what I mean.

Bro Aziiqbal and PakistanFirst.

You are changing the direction of this topic towards politics. My humble request to please stick to the comparison based on numbers supported by links. Let us keep it strictly an Economic thread.

Thank you. :-)

This topic is strictly to cover the Nawaz/Benaizr era Vs the Musharraf era economic achievements and it is meant to show to the people of Pakistan and to the world that which leader gave what to Pakistan under their tenure.

.

Sure bro I was just stating my point we should stick to topic!

Unemployment Rate :

1987 = 3.1 %
1988 = 3.1 %
1989 = 3.1 %

When Benazir/Nawaz era started

1990 = 3.1 %
1991 = 6.3 %
1992 = 5.9 %
1993 = 4.7 %
1994 = 4.8 %
1995 = 5.4 %
1996 = 5.4 %
1997 = 6.1 %
1998 = 5.9 %
1999 = 5.9 %

When Benazir/Nawaz era ended:

2000 = 7.8 %

and now

When Musharraf era started :

2001 = 7.8 %
2002 = 8.3 %
2003 = 7.8 %
2004 = 7.7 %
2005 = 8.3 %
2006 = 6.6 %
2007 = 6.5 %



Conclusion: The unemployment rate which was holding at 3.1% from 1987 - 1989 when Benazir and Nawaz era started ended up at more then twice at 7.8% when Nawaz was ousted. It has been effectively brought down to 6.5% under Musharraf era and trend seems to contiously decrease as the GDP increases and new jobs are being created.

Link
Link

A point I wanted to add is that during the era of Benazir and Nawaz combined, GDP grew at a snail's pace whereas the population grew rapidly and since not much of that $20 billion loan was invested into creating jobs, the unemployment rate continued to increase unabated.

In Musharraf's era, the GDP has almost doubled as well as a massive amount of resources are being injected into the system towards creating jobs on a scale that has been unprecedented ever in the entire history of Pakistan.

Pakistan's GDP.( In Billion $)

1999 = $ 47.01

and the past 6 years trend :


2002 $ 71.7
2003 $ 82.4
2004 $ 98.0
2005 $ 109.5
2006 $ 126.9
2007 $ 143.6 (March)

It is for everyone to see and reach a conclusion on their own who did what for Pakistan !!

My GDP prediction for the next 5 years (billions)

2008 $160
2009 $180
2010 $200
2011 $225
2012 $255

So from 2002 ($71billion)-2012 ($225billion) we should aim to triple our GDP inside a decade.

So our GDP per capita by 2012 should be around $1500 if we have a population growth rate of 2% which is what it should remain. We need to control brith rate otherwise GDP per capita is not going to increase because we will have more mouths to feed.

Our birth rate during 1980s and 1990s went as high as 5% for two decades (refugee situation) had we kept it at 2% as in 1960s and 1970s our GDP per capita would be near $1500 as of 2007 as apposed to 2012 by my prediction. In theory our defence budget can easily be $10 billion by 2012.

.

It has been almost 2 weeks since this topic is opened and not one Nawaz/Benazir supporter has come and contributed any figure comparison supported by links pointing out that look, they did better in this. Why ?

but when it comes to throwing dirt at Musharraf. All are P.H.D in politics wana bes...

Again brothers we all have an opportunity to put our points of view forward on who achieved what and why. Was it the two idiots masquerading as Prime Ministers (BB and NS), or was it General Mushy who did more for Pakistan. I know who I would go for, and it's not the first two. I mean you just have to look at the stats, only an absolute idiot can fail to understand where the arguement is heading, and in who's favour it's heading in.
The figures can be summed up in two sentences. Pakistan at the end of the 1990's was effectively a failed as well as a bankrupt state. Pakistan at the end of 2007 has turned things around to such an extent that there is light at the end of the tunnel, more than in it's entire hstory. If things keep on improving e.g. growth rates of 7-8% year on year, then I see no reason why Pakistan can't have a GDP of at least $400 billion by 2020. That should be the aim of every government from now until 2020. If Pakistan achieves this then it will be set on the path to a very bright future. The talents of it's population will be unleashed on the world, and Pakistan will be the leader amongst the Islamic world. That is what the government should strive for, especially for the next two decades at least.
So I agree with the above quote 100%, in that the current economic team needs to remain in place and be renewed as necessary with the brightest and best individuals from home and abroad. And if BB is going to have a place in government (something I believe Pakistan should avoid like the plague), then I believe she and her cohorts should be given a warning by the military in that if the current state of the country is tampered with, or things start to go pear shaped then they will not be dealt with leniently.
Good governance is the key, if you can play by the rules then you have a place at the table. If you can't and want to turn the clock back to the 80's and 90's then be prepared to reap the whirlwind aka the Pakistani military. The next 3 years will probably give us a good indicication of where Pakistan is heading. Will it be soaring up into the heavens onwards and upwards, or will it be another crash and burn. I sincerely hope It's the former for all our sakes.

Regards

Syed

The government's plan is to have a $1 trillion GDP by 2030, with 250 million population, meaning $4000 GDP per capita. It may be an ambitious goal, but it is certainly within reach. In one decade of economic prosperity (starting around 2002, ending 2012) we will triple our GDP (if our growth remains); beginning at $72 billion in 2002 and my estimate is that it will reach around $250-280 billion by 2012.

In many aspects its too little too late but nevertheless any progress is good progress, our GDP per capita TODAY should have been $5000 same as Iran and Turkey.

Actually, it should have been more then $5,000 if as the stats in previous posts suggests it wasnt for the wrong and highly questionable engagements undertaken by Benaizr, Nawaz, Benazir and then Nawaz again era.

Can some knowledgeable member quote the price of lets says Aata, Rice, Sugar, Oil from 1987- 2007 ?

How much was it per kg during these times ?

Please PM me the data so that I can compile the list.

Maybe so, but that blame would fall on the likes of BB and NS. Iran has oil, so that is a huge advantage in terms of GDP per capita; and Turkey as been a nation a lot longer then we have, with continuous support from the US.

brother if one wants to make country no one can stop them, look South Korea, Seoul was like a pill of rumble after Korean War but they overtake us in late 1950s when we had best relationship with West and US, look China whole world try and stop them but they suceed, if u want to make country and people is united no outside person can stop u that is a fact-GCC dont have any subways but Tehran was first country with Subway in 1996 and they had all oil installation destroyed by Saddam we cant blame anyone but ourselves and we should face the facts and not be naive

Yes I agree with what you are saying, and I also agree that it is the people that need to step up and help in developing the country. But to do this on a large, national scale, you need a competent leader, who is not corrupt and someone who know something about economics/finance etc. The reason you see development now is that Mush is a competent leader, the reason why we had a stagnant country for over a decade (90s) was because BB and NS were ruling (they are not competent, they are corrupt)

Pakistan needs best relation with USA and the west, no doubt about it. Korea did it because of the west, nobody can do it without that, there are dozens examples.

When is the first quarter data going to be released for the current financial year?

Yes good relations wouldn't hurt, but we should never become dependent, or reliant on them.

Ask some unbiased financial analyst, and you'll get the real answer. These are figures only; the reality on ground is totally different, ask a poor person .. how much progress is there? How many have access to quality education? ( we have double standard in education system ) how many "BURGERS" ( Mr. Browns) we are producing now? Where is NATIONALISM? Where is dignity of a Pakistani internationally? ( go out and you'll know why others laugh at us and our Govt. )

We celebrate Eid by DANCING and SINGING ( you see semi-naked girls on TV )

This county was supposed to be "ISLAMIC REPUBLIC" .... where is Islam? Everything is based on Interest .. our Banking system everything.

ground reality is always different than those official figures.


sorry to burst your bubble; but things are even worst.

Do you always cry like this ?

I also posted figures for Nawaz/Benazir era. They are wrong too?

If they are all wrong then why dont you do what I have been asking for the past 2 and half weeks. Post counter figures supported by links.

Now dont go hide in your stupid hole and come back and reply with what I asked for. People like you are a DISGRACE to even those Nawaz/Benazir supporters who have some good reason to support them !!

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH!! Then ask some unbiased financial analyst to come on this forum and post unbiased financial reports, or just stop complaining.

Or he could ask some common people (do a survey) of if they their living conditions were better 10 years ago or now.

World believes that hard facts and comparative figures in percentage cannot be fiddled. But unfortunately, many Pakistanis have no parallel and can deny all facts and figures unabashedly. Anyhow, here are some interesting facts and figures about Pakistan economical progress

Source:http://www.statpak.gov.pk/depts/fbs/statis...l_accounts.html

GDP growth of Pakistan over different periods (in dollars):

Pakistan economy in 1958 was around $3.6 billions

Pakistan economy in 1961 was $ 4.2 billions
Pakistan economy in 1969 was $ 9.7 billions
GDP Increase of $ 5.5 billions in 8 best years (1961-69) of Ayub Khan was @ 11.0 percent per year.

[Pakistan economy in 1958 was around $3.6 billions
Pakistan economy in 1969 was $9.7 billions
GDP Increase of around $ 6.1 billions during 11 years (1958-1969) of Ayub was around @ 9.4 percent per year.]

Pakistan economy in 1972 was $11.4 billions
Pakistan economy in 1977 was $15.8 billions
GDP Increase of $ 4.4 billions in 5 years of ZA Bhutto rule was @ 6.7 percent per year.

Pakistan economy in 1977 was $15.8 billions
Pakistan economy in 1988 was $40 billions
GDP Increase of $ 24.2 billions in 11 years of Zia rule was @ 8.8 percent per year.

Pakistan economy in 1988 was $40 billions
Pakistan economy in 1999 was $62.2 billions
GDP Increase of $ 22.2 billions in 11 years of corrupts duo (BB and NS) rule was @ 4.1 percent per year.

Pakistan economy in 1999 was $62.2 billions
Pakistan economy in 2007 was $146.3 billions
Increase of $ 84.1 billions in 8 years of Musharraf rule was @ 11.3 percent per year.

Once political government under President Musharraf came into being:
Pakistan economy in 2002 was $72.8 billions
Pakistan economy in 2007 was $146.3 billions
GDP Increase of $ 74.5 billions in 5 years of Musharraf rule was @ 15.0 percent per year. … What a thumping economical growth


Per Capita Income growth during different periods (in dollars):

Though there is huge difference between 15 percent average economical growth during Musharraf last 5 years of political rule (2002-2007) compared to BB and NS 4.1 percent average economical growth during 11 years of their corrupt rule, this difference becomes more shocking when population growth of country is taken into account (as population growth erode economical growth comparable to population growth, and in earlier years Pakistan population growth was very high, but today it is quite reasonable, still high).

This is how per capita income varied during various periods:

Pakistan per capita economy in 1961 was $ 91
Pakistan per capita economy in 1969 was $ 152
Per Capita Income Increase of $ 61 in per capita income during 8 best years (1961-69) of Ayub rule was @ 6.62 percent per year.

Pakistan per capita economy in 1972 was $ 184
Pakistan per capita economy in 1977 was $ 213
Per Capita Income Increase of $ 29 in per capita income during 5 years of Bhutto rule was @ 2.97 percent per year.

Pakistan economy in 1977 was $ 213
Pakistan economy in 1988 was $ 395
Per Capita Income Increase of $ 182 in per capita income during 11 years of Zia rule was @ 5.77 percent per year.

Pakistan economy in 1988 was $ 395
Pakistan economy in 1999 was $ 468
Per Capita Income Increase of $ 73 in per capita income during 11 years of corrupts duo (BB and NS) rule was @ 1.55 percent per year.

[Pakistan economy in 1999 was $ 468
Pakistan economy in 2007 was $ 925
Increase of $ 457 in per capita income during 8 years of Musharraf rule was @ 8.89 percent per year]

Once political government under President Musharraf came into being:
Pakistan economy in 2002 was $ 509
Pakistan economy in 2007 was $ 925
Per Capita Income Increase of $ 416 in per capita income during 5 years of Musharraf rule was @ 12.69 percent per year. … That’s call something to brag upon … incomparable with anything Pakistan has ever seen or expected to see


Summary: Pakistan ‘GDP’ and ‘Per capita income’ growth in US dollars.

Ayub (1961-1969): Average increase per year over 8 Years
GDP: 11 % per year … … Per capita income: 6.62 % per year

Bhutto (1972-1977): Average increase per year over 5 Years
GDP: 6.7 % per year … … Per capita income: 2.97 % per year

Zia (1077-1988): Average increase per year over 11 Years
GDP: 8.8 % per year … … Per capita income: 5.77 % per year

BB and NS (1988-1999): Average increase per year over 11 Years
GDP: 4.1 % per year … … Per capita income: 1.55 % per year

Musharraf (2002-2007): Average increase per year over 5 Years
GDP: 15 % per year … … Per capita income: 12.69 % per year


Now just imagine that today Pakistanis are getting better off in US dollars at the rate of 12.7 percent a year and still some crowing about period when Pakistan per capita income was increasing at the rate of 1.55 percent a year : I do not know what to say other than ponder ‘WHY ?’.

But a country where all logic fails and where people are judged on ethnicity, affiliation (religious/political), or personal like and dislike, rather on merit, hard work and results, this is what one can expect.

Interesting. There should be no denying that the Musharraf government have had its share of a few wrong economic policies, however, your last paragraph nails the whole issue.

Another thing I wanted to add is what I have concluded that most people want OVERNIGHT change. They fail to understand that micro economic benefits can only be passed onto them once the macro economic of the country is stabilized.

I myself believe that it is time that the macro economic progress be transposed into micro economic benefits towards providing relief to a common man of Pakistan. and I only see it happening IF and ONLY IFF Musharraf(current team responsible for this economical turn around miracle) stays.

Currently, I am working on compiling the data of basic neccessities such as Rice/Aaata/Oil per kg prices from 1989-2007 in Pakistan. The percentage rise in prices under each year. I will be soon posting the figures supported by links. All I can say at this moment that I am shocked that the prices percentage wise have slowed down from increasing as they had been incresing under the Benazir/Nawaz era. A lot of members always complaining about the price increase will have to think twice on thier complaints.

Man, its been weeks since this thread has started and not a SINGLE person has been able to refute the claims that Musharraf is advancing Pakistan economically.

Thats a phenonminal piece of data Salim thanks for all that info!

fantastic thread.

the figures prove alot and show we do dont need the 2 jockers of the pack. i would beg bb and gunja to stay away. in not a figures person but having lived in pakistan and travelled around alot you can see development in so many shapes, lahore airport, motorways, roads, bridges (just look at the road expansion os isb, i go there every 2mnthsor so)etc ctc

our people often are blind to these things and too eagerly find or magnify faults in our leaders or systems, not knowing that at least in this life there can be no utopia.

man you should be the part of the Govt or it spokesperson and this is called putting facts on to the face.
Well done

Another achievement of present government is that it spread the mobile network all over the country and make it possible and in the range that every Pakistani use the latest communication technology unlike the past governments inwhich the mobile was only limited to elite rich class and was a status symbol.

Pakistan has 72.89m mobile phone users.

KARACHI: Telenor Pakistan has elbowed Ufone to become the second biggest cellular network provider in terms of subscribers, Daily Times has learnt. Since the year 2005 Ufone had retained its second position and was considered to be the second biggest mobile phone operator in Pakistan. And this was so until last month when Telenor, with 15.46 million users, overthrew it to claim the second position for itself. Ufone with 15.42 million subscribers now holds the third position.

Sources in the Pakistan Telecommunication Authority told this scribe that the way competition is proceeding, some more interesting happenings may be expected in the coming years as all the companies are putting all their efforts to be the number one mobile phone operator of Pakistan.Pakistan’s mobile phone market has passed 70-million user mark. Latest figures compiled by the PTA suggest cellular phone connections reached 72.89-million mark by September 2007. Within a period of one month, September 2007, Pakistan’s fast growing telecom industry managed to add 4.89 million subscribers.

According to a PTA official, since January 2007 more than 22.21 million new connections have been sold on the back of comparatively cheaper tariff offers due to the rising competition among the cellular service providers.Mobilink continues to remain the leading operator in the sector with maximum market share both in terms of subscribers and revenues.The figures gathered by the telecom watchdog show that by September 2007 Mobilink led the market with 28.57 million subscribers followed by Telenor, which was serving 15.46 million people across the country. Ufone now holds the third position 15.42 million subscribers and Warid is at the fourth position with 11.86 million subscribers. Meanwhile, the aggressively marketed Paktel has managed to grab 1.23 million subscribers.

Among all the new entrants, Telenor has shown its strength by capturing a good market and has left behind its closest competitor Warid within one month’s time to claim the second position. While Paktel, now owned by CMPak, has still been unable to add fuel to the current mobile operators’ battle.Telecom industry in Pakistan attracted $9 billion foreign investment in the last three years, and another $ 4 billion are expected during the next 3 to 4 years. Around 1.5 million new subscribers are being added each month.

According to some analysts, the mobile phone industry has reached its take-off level and has entered a new phase where investors are keen to invest and subscribers are happy to avail quality services at reasonably competitive prices. Much of this credit goes to the telecom regulator that has created a conductive, and investor and user friendly regime in Pakistan.
The four major companies Mobilink, Telenor, Ufone and Warid have earned better market share during the last fiscal year. These days, the cellular operators are spending huge amounts on advertisement campaigns to introduce different packages for their customers with different tariff packages and incentives.

link

http://dawn.com/2007/11/18/ebr6.htm

Thank you !

Ur point for that whole stuff was....

B4 1999 ppl didnt even knew what mobile phone is and we lived in postal age... today even beggers carry mobile phone... look at the call rate the average consumer enjoys, less than Rs 2 for a call.... Now if u compare international calling rates which have fallen from the hieght of Rs 30+ to less 2 or 3 rupees....


The advancement in telecommunication has far out valued the import bill its has attached to it...

They usually call it "economic deception" the past 8 years. Then they point out failings of the government. True there are alot of areas need more attention but which country has seen growth across the board and everyone has benefitted equally?

Why don\'t you call up the PTA(Pakistani Telecommunications Authority) and ask them what the point is? And as far as beggars are concerned I think the poor sods need jobs and housing before they need cellphones. If we had poor homeless jobless beggars with cellphones I think that means there are too many cellphones in Pakistan.

We already do ... beggers are entrepreneurs and hence to a large extent better off than many. Majority of the country sits around like a bunch of helpless african kneegrows wait for UN aid ... or in our case, government handouts (which is pretty much the govt. how now come down to)

All these figures will amount to nothing if BB and NS take control of the finances, more money will be pumped into ittehad industries and zardari inc. That is why it is imperative Musharraf remains pres for at least the next ten yrs. for all the 'democarcy and bb & ns supporters out there the facts and figures are absoloutely crystal clear. Im not a big fanof dictators per se, but you give us and alternative and we the pak ppl will gladly embrace them.

musharraf has worked wonders for pakistan, the indians know it, the yanks, joos, europeans they all know it. and now he is making pakistan progress they want him out and the psychophants in.

with all the development projects that are about to bear fruition i can bet my bottom rupiyah whos gonna want to take all the credit any guesses???????

nice info in this thread. i have a few questions if someone can provide me the numbers.

1) what is the base year for the current GDP, when was the base year changed and what was the base year before the change?
2) what is the value of the spending multipier?

Unfortunately the government's job should be to regulate and pull these people to their feet. Loans/hand outs should NOT be given unless certain conditions are met...for example, all of a family's children should be in school; parent(s) should be employed, etc. It's just like who has the right to vote...if only public-school teachers, government employed doctors & nurses, police and government labourers had a right to vote - and had to vote - then the situation of the education, health and law & order system would be different.

Salim brother, you are the Finance Minister of PDF. Well done once again.

hey...is it possible if someone can post the KSE performance in Nawaz/BB era and in Musharraf era? I know KSE has done pretty well in last 5 years but i wanna know KSE's performance under the democratic regime. I want to know indicators like market capitalization, volume, price, PE, EPS, etc. I greatly appreciate it if someone can give a quick analysis. Salim bhai u have analyzed Pakistan's economy beautifully so I would love to get more help from you regarding KSE-100. Thanks.

I was having a similar debate with another person, on the same topic, and he argued that Mushy achieved this economic feet accidently by establishing an artificial sense of political stability and causing an inflow of foreign aid. Therefore, the problem of political instability and a lack of domestic resource mobilisation were eliminated (temporarily). He said Mushy's achievements were unsustainable, highly limited, and these problems will re-appear in the long-run, due to the fact that the social development status also remains unchanged and degradation of natural resources have only worsened.

The engineering sector growth
Year 1999/00----2006/07
Cars 34,911---- 180,834 units
Trucks 925---- 4,293
Jeep & LCV, 464---- 3397
Pick ups 3,773 ---- 19,981
Farm Tractors 23,201---- 54,052
Motor Cycles 86,658---- 467,353
source

Now take into account, Banking sector growth, It and Telecom growth which is worls beating and also Exports from 9 Bn to 17 Bn and they are in line with the GDP rates, infact even better. The KSE from 1300 to 13000 points.
This should be an eye opner for all those delusional people who have fallen to the propaganda of political loosers. Even when they were not into politics but other areas whenever they succeed it was because of them when they lost it was external factors.

Good posts people.

I find it quite funny to see people like Shamraz Khan, Arsalan/Arslan and pakistanzindabad avoiding this thread like the plague.

Thats because all they have is debunked idealogical ideas, when the people contributing to this thread have actual fact. Ideas are good and all, but in the end of the day fact trumps them.