That is why I love Accounting. It is straight forward, accurate and no scope for silly arguements.

Not one has come on this thread with some figures supported by links and said that look, Nawaz or Benazir out performed Musharraf in this !!

Well, they DID outperform Musharraf in the amount of money they put into their Swedish bank accounts.

Anyway, I'm wondering as to exactly WHAT is being manufactured in the manufacturing sector. Has Pakistan finally started to move beyond the regular textile exports and into things such as heavy machinery, electronics, etc.?

I would be more than glad if Pakistan becomes self sufficient in manufacturing electronics and chips for it's telecom industry and starts getting some serious business in software. The software exports are really picking up. I have seen some startups doing great job. Telecom manufacturing remains on the dull side and needs to be rectified. Inshallah another 6 years with the same policy and we will achieve alot. The policy for automobile industry is also out and that too can boast our manufacturing alot.

Look economy doesnt grow under one man called Musharaf everyone in country the minds make a difference so kindly stop saying Musharaf is the answer to everything!

This is the era of globalistaion and everyone is making money look Vietnam they are making new bridge in Hanoi does Pakistan have such bridge? No. Look Thailand they are going to make subway for Bangkok does Pakistan have subway? No.

Pakistan is very very far behind, in Jakarta they have massive huge shopping centres does Pakistan have anything like this? No.

Compare to other countrys and Pakistan is far behind, our GDP is tiny and one person cant do jack until whole nation get going and make business and trade.

Look economy doesnt grow under one man called Musharaf everyone in country the minds make a difference so kindly stop saying Musharaf is the answer to everything!

This is the era of globalistaion and everyone is making money look Vietnam they are making new bridge in Hanoi does Pakistan have such bridge? No. Look Thailand they are going to make subway for Bangkok does Pakistan have subway? No.

Pakistan is very very far behind, in Jakarta they have massive huge shopping centres does Pakistan have anything like this? No.

Compare to other countrys and Pakistan is far behind, our GDP is tiny and one person cant do jack until whole nation get going and make business and trade.

Look, I will be the first to admit that the Mushrraf Government (not just Musharraf) have contributed economically to Pakistan.

Our objections to him are not based on economic terms. Rather on what he's doing in FATA, with Kashmir, the clampdown in Islamabad (etc etc). That's the beginning and end of the argument. Economics don't play into it.

As such, this thread is totally irrelevant. Never have I maintained that BB or NS were better than Musharraf. Never.

AoA to all. Anybody plz explain
1) all this data is from State Bank OF Pak. Nobody in his senses uses govs own data anywhere in the whole world to analyze that gov.
2) and all this gdp expansion can be explained by GDP base adjustment around 2000?, which happens all around the world and is no achievement
3) this is the time during which pak received the most us aid, well for this u can giv that dictator credit b/c selling one's own ppl is no small feat.
plus seriously brother ground reality is completely different. Prices have sky rocketed, things are not getting better.

Look, I will be the first to admit that the Mushrraf Government (not just Musharraf) have contributed economically to Pakistan.

AoA to all. Anybody plz explain
1) all this data is from State Bank OF Pak. Nobody in his senses uses govs own data anywhere in the whole world to analyze that gov.
2) and all this gdp expansion can be explained by GDP base adjustment around 2000?, which happens all around the world and is no achievement
3) this is the time during which pak received the most us aid, well for this u can giv that dictator credit b/c selling one's own ppl is no small feat.
plus seriously brother ground reality is completely different. Prices have sky rocketed, things are not getting better.

2 aliph 5 here is a good article for you to read which you might not have already seen.

It goes through in detail, the flaws of the different arguements about the causes of Pakistan's economic turnaround such as
- it all due to economic aid
- it due to money from the USA.
- the world economy is doing well, so Pakistan is also doing well
- the Pakistan economy is dominanted by the military etc

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/publi...UNPAN020761.pdf

Although this article provides clear facts and figure, sadly opponents of the present government rather than providing their own facts and figures to conters these point, will instead say - 'these figure were produced by the government so they must not be true'

Thank you sir!

As until recently as last night someone ask me, "name one thing musharraf has done or built?"

I did not have words to answer him. Now I do.

Your right 2 aliph 5 keep up the postive reports, good work!

Great thread pal! Please incorporate facts and figures regarding telecom revolution brought in by Mushy in last 7 years
Total connections reaching 50 million this year I guess.

Look economy doesnt grow under one man called Musharaf everyone in country the minds make a difference so kindly stop saying Musharaf is the answer to everything!

This is the era of globalistaion and everyone is making money look Vietnam they are making new bridge in Hanoi does Pakistan have such bridge? No. Look Thailand they are going to make subway for Bangkok does Pakistan have subway? No.

Pakistan is very very far behind, in Jakarta they have massive huge shopping centres does Pakistan have anything like this? No.

Compare to other countrys and Pakistan is far behind, our GDP is tiny and one person cant do jack until whole nation get going and make business and trade.

2 aliph 5 I totally agree with you that Pakistan has progressed but I have little problems with your comparison.

The biggest problems that I see with this comparison is that it compares the years where there are no international sensations on Pakistan also it doesn't take into account the amount of direct/indirect aid given by US. The international loan forgiveness and the payment extension given by Japan and Paris Club on the massive amount of loan that it has loaned to Pakistan.

If you want really compare apple to apple then any time during 1989-Oct 1999 and Oct 1999 till Sep. 2001, It would be the same time period where sensation were still in place and almost no financial aid was being given to Pakistan.

just my two cents

1. I gave credit to the Nawaz and Benazir era for the $20 billion loan that together they took out.

2. If you can provide figures supproted by links how much aid was given to Pakistan under Musharraf, It will be appreciated as I am sure it is no where even close to $20 billion.

Benazir and Nawaz era continued to recieve aid despite the sanctions in 1990s. Example being $600 million aid every year from Japan untill 1999; Nuclear testing. Pakistan also recieved aid from other countries including USA and EU.

3. Please see the posts by Smegster and Instantexcess.

Lastly and most importantly, Please debate with me by using the numbers supported by links. Again. This is not a bashing thread. Strictly economic debate SQUARELY based on figures supported by links.

-----
^^^^^

**Sits up straight**

-----

I am totally offended the way you address the people who don't agree with you.

-----1. I gave credit to the Nawaz and Benazir era for the $20 billion loan that together they took out.

I just gave an example for close to 10$ billion in Loans being taken by the goverment.

As for the debt reduction. You seem to have forgotten about the 1 Billion debt forgiveness by the US.
-----On the same note: You can not consider it as aid the money usa gives to Pakistan for operation costs in FATA areas for their own value and which is a sunk cost for Pakistan for no value.
I am sure you will use the stats that suit you and i will use that suit my opinion, here's a link to 10 billion in Aid.

U.S. aid to Pakistan of over $10 bln is questioned
26 Feb 2007 23:51:16 GMT

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N26330929.htm

^^^^^^

**Stretches**
You link is incomplete as it does not give a breakdown. Almost a $1 billion goes towards the operational costs in FATA areas which is a sunk cost for Pakistan armed forces. Just read the last paragrapgh of the same link you posted. Actually $1.2 billion x 5 years = 6 billion which is irrelevant for Pakistan Armed Forces.... :-) The balance is $ 4 billion in actual aid. 3 billion is the promised aid over 5 years equally divided half and half in military and economic assistance. The other one billion is the debt which was written off.

You can add those 4 billion in that 2.196 billion. So now we have $6.196 billion aid. So you are saying that Pakistan progressed all this much with a mere 6-7 billion in aid?

Well, why dont you ENLIGHTEN me where did Nawaz and Benazir spend the $20 billion they took out in loans by giving comparison figures ?

I certainly can't give you exact stats for where the $20 bln went but from my memory 4 things that i do remember are starting of M2, Expansaion of GT Road, PTCL moving to digital age and Yellow Taxi scheme.

Thank god someone bothered to reply. I was starting to get bored.

Against the tide




By M.P. Bhandara


GENERAL Musharraf’s legal and so-called democratic credentials may be poor but his probity for good governance is superior to that of his political opponents. Consider: Transparency International, the highly respected Berlin-based institute, which measures the Corruption Perception Index worldwide, rated Pakistan as the second most corrupt nation in 1996.

This was the mid-point in our decade of democracy during the 1990s; the same institute in 2007 ranked 41 countries as more corrupt than Pakistan. This is not a glamour statistic but a measure of better governance. But, this breaks no news or headlines in a country that professes Islam as its lodestar.

Corruption is a hydra headed monster. If the ruler is corrupt or perceived as such, every minion of state has more or less the right to set up his own bazaar. An international polling entity conducted a survey between Aug 1 and Aug 5 this year questioning 680 persons in Karachi, 287 in Rawalpindi/ Islamabad and 168 in Lahore — a total of 1,135 persons from all strata of society.

One of the questions asked was: which ruler in your perception misused his office most for corrupt endeavours? Nawaz Sharif topped the list with 55 per cent, followed by Ms Bhutto 37 per cent, and Musharraf eight per cent!

Again, this is no news in a country where hypocrisy and bogus sanctimony is a substitute for religion; where slogans and slander masquerade for politics.

The question arises: why are rulers who built palaces from Surrey to Raiwind and from Saudi Arabia to Spain welcomed by the suffering masses? In the name of the stupidity of the many and the superior wisdom of the few, we forget the many insults they inflicted on democracy and the depredations they visited on the treasury during their day of power. Indeed, the slogan of democracy in Pakistan is a mirage, truly the opiate of the masses.

To err is human. General Musharraf has erred badly since March this year. One grievous mistake after another — the sacking of the Chief Justice, followed by temporising on Lal Masjid (why was the law not enforced when lathi-wielding burqa-clad women took over a children’s library?), the events of May 12 in Karachi and finally permitting a foreign power to midwife the evolution of political events in our country.

Perhaps the most grievous error was for General Musharraf to have broken faith. He had promised to doff his uniform by Dec 31, 2004. Had he done so, this ugly September in the Supreme Court could have been avoided. Perhaps, some day General Musharraf may realise that his fixation on the uniform and two offices was unnecessary — a mere red rag to the legal bull.

Prior to March 9, the general was high up in opinion polls; he could have defeated any politician in or out of the country if our Basic Law had permitted a presidential election based on adult franchise. So, why did the general devalue the latent strength of his achievements between 2001 and 2006? Consider: a rising economy, which averaged seven per cent plus in GDP growth over this period. A middle class was truly born in this period.

Consider: nearly as many motorcycles, television sets, mobile phones, domestic washing machines and fans, will be sold this year, as in the entire ‘democratic’ decade of the 1990s. This middle class is liberal by conservative standards, send their girls to schools, and aim for professional education for their sons. The rural areas received more access to piped potable water last year than in the entire decade of the 1990s. The rise in new electricity and gas connections has been likewise astronomical.

Equally impressive was the freeing of the press and the media since 2001. Never in our last 60 years has the press and media been as free as it is today, barring a few recent hiccups. What sort of a ‘dictator’ is he who allows himself to be lampooned on television, abused in the National Assembly, traduced in the press, and allows the judges to overrule his fiat?

On Kashmir and relations with India, Musharraf has earned the undying hatred of the right wing but most of us do realise, that there is no such thing as a ‘1,000-year war with India’, as once promised by the late Bhutto. A flexible approach on Kashmir has put India on the defensive.

Cross-border jihadism which only made life more miserable for the Kashmiris in the valley — caught between two infernos — swayed world opinion violently against Pakistan and sullied the Kashmir liberation movement. It required courage to free the economy from bureaucratic constraints, free the press and give India an honourable opportunity to come to terms on Kashmir. General Musharraf’s is a profile in courage.

As a politician, Musharraf has been less than adroit; he failed to appreciate that after eight years of power, any ruler must reinvent himself, if he wishes to continue in office. The road to reinvention would have been to go to the opposite extreme i.e. seek the mandate of the nation but this was not to be, and is now history.

On Saturday, Oct 6, the electoral college consisting of the members of the National Assembly, the Senate and provincial assemblies will vote in a president, among three contestants.

The voters of this country can only vote vicariously. What should be the criteria for consideration?

To my mind, the debate should be on measurable units of benefits given to the nation by the previous governments in the decade of democracy in the 1990s and the current era. For example, new rural dispensaries and hospitals and no qualified doctors in these, girl students receiving primary and secondary education, number of new safe drinking water outlets, new energy connections, comparison of prices of key commodities in Pakistan compared to the countries in the Saarc region, delays in lower and higher courts.

Instead, the entire focus in this election is on legal issues such as Article 58-2(b) or the uniform question.

This is not to say that constitutional issues are irrelevant. The need is merely to prioritise issues. Constitutional issues concern at best 0.1 per cent of the population, while the government’s ability to reach out and provide social, legal and health benefits to the common man concern 99.9 per cent of the population. Television and other debates should bring about a balance among the concerns of the many and the demands of the eclectic few.

Any comparison between the social and economic benefits received by the nation in the 1990s — the Bhutto-Sharif decade — and the period 2000-2007, makes the former come out so poorly, as to make one wonder why the nation wishes to inflict on itself ‘another decade of democracy’. If the 1990s are a guide, we will be buying again poverty, cronyism, corruption, cheating and a reversal back to ‘ground zero’. Should this be our fate? #

The writer is a member of the National Assembly

murbr@isb.paknet.com.pk

2 aliph 5 I totally agree with you that Pakistan has progressed but I have little problems with your comparison.

The biggest problems that I see with this comparison is that it compares the years where there are no international sensations on Pakistan also it doesn't take into account the amount of direct/indirect aid given by US. The international loan forgiveness and the payment extension given by Japan and Paris Club on the massive amount of loan that it has loaned to Pakistan.

A good paper, which goes through, the government debt policy is here

http://www.finance.gov.pk/debtPolicy.pdf

(Note I know that some people are going to reply back with accusation that the debt burden has gone up recently as the level of external debt has increase from $35 billion to $40 billion in the last 2 year, so the government is failing but I will answer the weaknesses of this criticism if I have enough time in my next reply)

2 aliph 5....all i have to say is kudos....great work keep it up. Shows the real progress we are making.

2 aliph 5....all i have to say is kudos....great work keep it up. Shows the real progress we are making.

Fantastic thread bro, keep it up!

btw, nice effort 2aliph5

Though I am not a Finance expert neither an Economist, however, my observation on this topic is as follows:

- During the last few years, the corporate growth is more than obvious. The number of limited liability companies being formed now is a 1000+% of the numbers being formed during the BB / Sharifs era. For proof one may visit www.secp.gov.pk and look at the figures there.

- Employee turnover for skilled labour has increased tremendously which shows that skilled labour now has much more options to choose from. The salaries have increased (for skilled labour) at a rate far above the inflation rate and so have the attached benefits.

- Spending power has increased. People, who used to be saving prone, during BB/Sharif era, are now confident and feel safer and hence are openly spending their money which is resulting in faster distribution of wealth, hence more economic activity generation and overall economy growth.

- Financial section has blossomed tremendously, which supports my above point. This sector grows when either the money movement from one hand to another increases or the whole money pot size increases.

Those who use KSE as a criteria for measuring the nation's economic growth are naive at best and fools at worse. Those who know the actual dynamics of our stock exchanges would agree with me that all the leading scrips are way overvalued based on their P/E fundamentals. Even Merril Lynch has been sounding its concern of over pricing since the last two years now.

ON THE NOT SO BRIGHT SIDE:

Macro fundamentals have improved significantly and the talk of debt increase but with increase in GDP does makes sense to the person who has his stomach full and whose children are all in private schools.

But for the common poor man of Pakistan (THE MAJORITY), this macro growth has not yet filtered down to the micro level. Inflation rate for fundamental necessities like wheat, rice, sugar, etc has been around 15% - 20% during the last twelve months alone. This is a major dent on the living standard of our common man. For him, his living standard has gone backwards and not forward. If his daily wage rate has increased by 10%, his daily ration cost has gone up by around 17%.

The gulf between the rich and the poor has increased during this period. This is causing alot of frustration among the masses.

It is high time that the economic progress starts filtering down to the poor segment of our society in the form of Government relief.

Free Medical, Free Education, Productive and Free Vocational Training to increase the skill level of our human resource and safety (law and order) MUST BE PROVIDED TO THE POOR SEGMENT OF OUR SOCIETY.

Trust me. Once the poor of our society start feeling safe and economically secure and are provided the above facilities, our growth rate would double in no time.

The Khushal Pakistan is Khushal for the Upper and Upper Middle class at the moment.

make it khushal for the class falling below Mid level and only then AND ONLY THEN will there be REAL progress and development.

==============
My Two Paisas
==============