PakDef IDEAS 2006 report:

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/index.html

Though something based off F-22P would not be a good idea IMO, the above does highlight a little of PN & KSEW's intentions. On PakDef H Khan reported KSEW's slots have been filled for the next 10 years with the 1 F-22P, 4 Milgem corvettes, 2 auxiliary ships, 2 tankers and 4 missile boats based off a Thai design (Link). pshamim also reported that PN is interested in Type-054A or a variant of it, and is in talks with China.

I think KSEW may be tasked with designing a frigate...my reasons:

1) Surface fleet expansion...we can expect 4 Type-054As - and those would be our only proper FFGs. The 4 F-22P and 4 Milgem are in the 2000-2500 displacement range, and by international standards regarded as corvettes, not frigates. PN was looking for 4-6 used frigates for a while and hasn't finalized anything yet...the Greek S-Class deal seems to have fallen through, and USN apparently can't spare us any OHPs.

2) PN could use a mainstay frigate to make up the main portion of its fleet...something it procure cheaply, use abroad as part of an international force involving NATO and build numbers with. Opportunity for direct PN consultation and exact requirements...similar to JF-17 with PAF, Al Khalid in PA, etc. Production of this FFG would also warrant expansion of Pakistan's military ship-building...into Gwadar perhaps?

3) Future requirements and projections would obviously require PN to move away from F-22P and induce heavy design changes...similar to how JF-17 turned out over the years. Pakistan's close naval ties with China and Turkey to gain design development assistance in the frigate's design...both China and Turkey are developing surface-ship subsystems and weapons.

My idea:

A proper multi-mission frigate design in the 3000-3200 ton displacement range...scaled down Type-054A and/or scaled-up MILGEM - clean and stealthy design? Armed with 8 SSMs, 2 triple torpedo tubes, 32 VLS for medium-range AAMs & naval LACMs, capability to deploy NSSG special forces, a PDMS like RAM or Mica VL? Jointly develop certain subsystems with China and Turkey...import key things such as radar, sensors, command & control, etc.

Perhaps 8 such frigates...compose center of our fleet.

Mark bro, - the PN is already thinking on these lines - my sources indicate that there has been a strategic rethinking of all things maritime (thank to PM) - you will see this manifest in the fact that over the next decade in terms of marines being a more powerfull force - the naval air arm being given fighters - we will also get 4-8 used multipurpose frigates in the 3000 plus range which will greatly increase our surface fleet. - Also our P3C fleet will be fully inducted -

Also we will be looking at the Chinese not just for 054A-B's but 2-3 fleet command ships or flag carriers in the plus 5000 ton level, which will be destroyers and give us the ability to conduct blue water operations, with fleet air defence capabilities,this along with the planned purchase of U214's will make the sub fleet the most advanced in south asia.

And the deployment of Babur & Raad cruise missiles for the navy both as air-and-sea launched will enable long range SEAD to be launched by the PN for the first time.

Also there is increasing co-operation with Turkey and there are also plans to be involved in their frigate project and it is also likely that the u214 may be a joint purchase. This means that if the plans at JSHQ and NHQ come to fruition INSHALLAH - in the next ten years the PN will no longer be a junior service but on level with the other two services.

The Type-054A has a displacement of 4500 tons, I think the Type-054-series will eventually touch 5000 or even cross it. I think the Turkish TF-2000 would more or less be in the same region as Type-054 - although the former is poised to have long-range/regional air defence capability. That does not discount further evolution of the Type-054-series though.

Used frigates have been a headache...the deal with Greece fell through, nothing major from U.S. and nothing (used) is available in Europe. Although used FFGs would be a good stop-gap measure.

I'm actually talking about 8 new-built frigates in the league of the Formidable Class...3000 to 3200 tons and standard: 32 VLS for medium-range SAM and naval LACMs; 8 SSMs; 2 triple torpedo tubes; helicopter & UAV/UUV; capable of deplying special forces (similar to MEKO D). A projected design would need to be fairly generic and simple...more or less along the lines of a scaled-down Type-054A and/or TF-2000 - or scaled up MILGEM.

Mark bro - the naval brass - have wargamed surface fleets as small battle groups - maybe as many as 3 or 4 with one ship with true fleet air defence capability this will probably be the 5000 plus ship and would either be the Turksish or 052C option.

your right that the 054 could eventually be close to the 5000 tonne mark - but the PN wants a couple of ships to be flag carriers for the battle groups.

So a battle group would consist of 1 destroyer 2 to 3 054A/B's, 1 or 2 F22p and with smaller craft with tanker and other support craft.

Also there is a plan in the likelyhood of war to completely disrupt indian trade and oil supplies with the straight of hormuz which will employee use of fast patrol craft and missile boats - these plans are highly advanced with very highly levels of training.

I don't think the PN would seek Type-052C for 5000+ option, even for PLAN those ships are in very limited numbers. Emphasis should and will likely be given to future developments of Type-054A, and the displacement will cross 5000 tons. If long-range air defence is an issue, I have full faith in the naval-tech developments of China and imagine that eventually the Type-054 series - if it crosses 5000 tons - will have regional air defence capability.

Assuming PN is interested in the TF-2000, I don't think it would exercise the entire vessel. An alternative would be to use it as a basis to develop a smaller - 3000-3200 tons - multi-mission stealth frigate, basically scale it down...or alternatively scale Type-054 down in size.

I think the F-22P, MILGEM and Agosta-90B will be regulated to defensive duties; while I think a Type-054-variant (5500 tons w/long-range air defence), smaller general frigate (3200 tons) and U214 would be used for more outgoing missions.

the sub tradition (a long and glorious one) has always been aggressive use of these assets so I don't think agosta90b's will be used in defensive mode. The submariners are trained to hunt and destroy enemy vessels both sub and surface. Also naval intelligence has come on by leaps and bounds and will enable the PN being a smaller force than the enemy to use its assets to better effect.

The PN from my sources wants true long range fleet air defence capability - which it has a number of options for - ur right about the Milgems they will operate within PAF cover and will deny enemy operations from coming to near the ports and terrotorial waters.

U are probably right about the 054's eventually being 5000 tonnes and therefore having full regional air defence and ability to fire LACM for the PN,

aggressive use for agosta 90b? Do you know how slow SSKs have to go to remain quiet? If PN wants to use SSKs to chase down much faster vessels, it's totally going the wrong direction.

Hi Tphuang going slow is the general rule of thumb for all submarines when operating in hostile waters. SSK’s still have an easier task of remaining quieter than their larger SSN cousins as the larger boats have greater issues with thermal scarring, sensors detecting the turbulence and water displacement caused by large boats making their way through the water , having greater anomalies in the Earth's magnetic field which are caused by a metallic object moving in the ocean hence the larger the object the greater the disturbance and Biological luminescence [micro-organisms emitting light when the water is disturbed again larger objects cause a greater variance. SSN’s do have greater speed at top end they are around 10 knots faster and have greater endurance but seeing as submersed operations are about stealth I’d prefer being smaller considering how many sensors today look out thermal, acoustic and other signatures.

I know I am stating the obvious [I’m addressing the poster you replied to] submarines are ambush predators and I think he got mixed up a little with the whole “chasing down” concept. Average diesel submarine would normally patrol at an economical 3-8 knots [submerged] which will gain it around 400-420 miles and with modern frigates doing 18 knots cruising the submarine could employ its top end sprint speed of 20 knots to cover distances faster in order to reach pre determined points where they will come across enemy vessels. Of course the ships are faster but if they are to employ ASW assets they will be need to be in the operating vicinity of the submarines. The Arabian Sea with its littoral waters and high end shipping gives an added edge in this regard.

WAZ
Basically you are spot on in your assessment. but as you know any submarine can avoid surface prosecution by staying below the thermal layer which all submarines practice doing.
The problem lays with Diesel boats not so much AIP Boats in having to charge there batteries typically a diesel boat patrols at 2-4 knows to extend its endurance. but once the batteries get down to 20% or so the have to surface or at least snorkel to charge batteries and get some fresh air in the boat. after a few hours she can go deep again.

Like I mentions in another post. Finding a sub Diesel or Nuc in open ocean is like finding a needle in a hay stack. once a sub is found asw by Air or Surface and even by sub is easy if done right... Finding them is the hard part.

Does India or Pakistan have any hydrophones mounded on the ocean bottom to may detection easier?

anything above 5 knots, ssk will loose their accoustic advantage over ssn. This is according to many submariners I've discussed with. Actually, I was told the larger a submarine it is, the more the noise can be absorbed by a greater surface area, so it will end up quieter. SSKs can certainly go at 20 knots, but sustaining is a different issue and you certainly don't want it to be going that fast around ASW assets.

Thanks Wazz for explaining better than me - desiel subs are alot quieter because nuclear subs have to have cooling systems because of reactors - which make considerable noise

Based on PakDef Forums and previous reports...PN appears to be in talks with China for at least 4 Type-054A-based variants. I hope we can get a cleaner more multi-mission type...I heard China has some serious ASW torpedo projects...and the Jiangkais already have very good air defence capabilities. If sometime down the line we can get a PDMS similar to RAM or MICA-VL for inner-layer defence...

I wonder if it'd be feasible to enlarge the Type-054A for long-range AD (HQ-9A?)...

Enlarge of type of 054A for Hq-9A, that is not realistic becuase CHina already has platform like 052C. The only feasibility in the future is to intergrate HQ-9A to Mk41 style VLS placed on 052C.

IF say, enlarge the 054A especially for our PN friend, that will be dame expensive. The ideal possibility is to reduce the size of HQ-9A to a size that fits into current VLS boxes, which still have a acceptable range cover.

The development of our own Frigate is a natural step. We have the demand (Pakistan Navy will need weapons to fight the Indian navy on the forseeable future) and the means (expereinced gained from assembling Fast attack crafts, Subs, F-22P etc). Having your own platform allows you to finally get a foot in the door at a technological level, it means you can experiment with new equipment and technology and adjust equipment quicker to suit your needs at a lower cost.

Are there any plans to reduce HQ-9A's size? Or what about a middle path with VLS boxes larger than the ones currently on Type-054A - but smaller than the ones on Type-052C?

doubt it. That would reduce it's range and HH-16's range is already probably 50 km, so it provides some level of area defense. Actually I think it would be more practical for PN to buy something like 052C rather than trying to modify 054A to hold it. A lot of things would depend on what kind of common VLS they can come up with in the next few years.

I see...but are there any new long-range SAMs under development? Is PLAN looking for something similar in length/wingspan/weight and performance to Standard II?

I guess that should be HH-9, but HH-9 seems to be larger and have longer range than standard.

Are they looking at a standard VLS system for both HH-9 and HH-16?

I'm hoping so, but we will probably be see a VLS for some kind of ASROC first. It's all dependent on 054B. Wait a couple of years, we will see a lot of interesting stuff.

That's interesting...but wouldn't ASROC require more VLS per ship? I imagine the goal would be to keep the 32-VLS for SAM...so would we see like 8 additional VLS tubes/boxes for ASROC? What about AShMs...would those also go on VLS?

That's what I always was hoping for. Some kind of common of VLS supporting both YJ-83 and ASROC. 054B should be focusing more on ASW from some of the information we do have.

Are there plans of moulding Type-054B along LCS lines on perhaps mission modules? Common VLS-tubes/boxes for HH-9, HH-16, YJ-83 and ASROC...but not necessarily armed with all of them, just some depending on mission requirements?

Starting from PN today, I think MILGEM would be a good step forward. After all, a class of such a ship, while more modern in many ways than F22P, would have both SSM and SAM (unlike current ex-UK Amazon), in addition to DP guns, ASW torps and heli (which current ships also have). A low cost design like MILGEM would allow for more hulls to be built (e.g. 8-12 rather than 6). Looking at the division of roles between forces, PN would not need to be much bigger, with bigger ships (though I grant adding dedicated AAW ships would be major step up in capability, a pair would already be good)

I would put F-22P and MILGEM in the same category...other than the later's superior ASW, I think F-22P can be upgraded with RAM - assuming it can even get RAM for MILGEM. IMO a lot would depend on U.S.-Pakistan transactions after 2010...my hope is for RAM to be a standard PDMS for all new PN frigates and corvettes. I'm unsure if F-22P's ASW can be upgraded with 2-triple torpedo tubes...but I also hope another 4 MILGEM are procured later on, giving PN 12 corvette class ships.

At present PN is to procure 4 new FFG, and it appears the Jiangkai Class is on top...if Type-054B has 32-VLS for HH-16 and VLS-based YJ-83 & ASROC, great...if PN can customize it with RAM for inner-layer AAW and perhaps space for NSSG/Naval Special Forces, even better! It would work out to PN's advantage if a common-VLS was being developed for HH-16 and HH-9 and if the Jiangkai class was made compatible for it. PN could procure 2 more Type-054Bs - with HH-9 - and use them as long-range AD ships as well as C&C frigates.

The Marine/Naval Infantry are being expanded...they've just set up an amphibious wing, which I hope grows and is augmented by an LPH in the future. The aviation wing is going through a pretty extensive improvement...more P-3Cs and even Hawkeye 2000s, plus new helicopters should be expected as well - and PN will have its own fighter squadron by 2009. The FAC fleet will ultimately consist of stealthy boats like MRTP-33...and I imagine the PN will procure larger patrol boats from Turkey to make up for the cancelled (by Pakistan) Castle OPV deal with U.K. The SSK fleet will consist of at least 6 AIP-equipped submarines - 3 Agosta-90B and 3 U214 (hopefully) - and on PakDef, view is the fleet will expand to 9-12.

I don't think it's going to be really cheaper than 054 series (provided that 054 is built in HD).

if you are talking about MK-41, I'm sure they are developing something like that.

I was talking about a low cost shipdesign, without commenting in any way on the price of 054 (of which I have no idea)

Very interesting information. I would sure like to see what that Thai missile boat design looks like.

Good to hear they are serious about Milgem and are considering the 054, its a beauty.

In my opinion, 8 heavy corvettes and 4 frigates are more than enough for the naval defence of Pakistan, given our submarine force and a shitload of missile boats.

If the KSEW is going to design and build something indigenous anytime soon, it would have to be something they have experience with, probably missile boats, maybe very big ones, which could qualify as small corvettes.

But if they are going to attempt a frigate, it will only happen AFTER they have built the F-22p and atleast one Milgem, which will be invaluable experience. And only if PN thinks that there is a serious need for more than 4 ships capable of going into deep sea offensively.

It would definitely be awesome, an indigenous Pakistani frigate... *drools*

We'll have to wait and see...but I think the MILGEM corvettes will form the mainstay of the PN fleet, probably in the long-term (after 2019). Personally I'd like to see the F-22Ps retired from PN service by 2020, and the fleet made up of contemporary surface vessels. After the 1st batch of 4 MILGEM, I think the PN should look into a larger corvette with more range and capabilities...something in the 2500 to 2750-ton range with capabilities similar to the AFCON corvette (check AFCON link).

My take...a 2500 to 2750-ton corvette with VLS for 32 medium-range SAM with retained PDMS, AShW & ASW capabilities of MILGEM!

Here is some info on the AFCON corvette's potential capabilities;


http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1039663/posts

I think, considering pakistan's limited resources, we should try and develop miniature fleets that are small so that they may be produced in larger numbers, be very versatile (this would make it difficult to attack them via air and missile systems), and have at least one weapon that would be devastating to the enemy. Think of it like a UWV (Unmanned Water Vehicle).

This will become a major force multiplier and help in countering many different threats in a 'swarming' fashion.

Lamda

sounds good, indian navy than cannot come near karachi. or they will go to hell.

submarine ambush depends heavily on intelligence and i think subs could play a back up role of breaking up and blockade of karachi though i still think gawadar should be upgraded rapidly. karachi is too vulnerable.