bojangles
Feb 1 2008, 04:33 PM
20,000 MW coal based thermal power by 2019 ISLAMABAD, Feb 1 (APP): Caretaker Federal Minister for Petroleum and Natural Resources, Ahsan Ullah Khan Friday said power generation from vast deposits of coal in Thar will help overcome growing energy supply and demand gap in view of rapid socio-economic growth in the country. He made these remarks while chairing a meeting of Inter-Provincial Committee constituted by the Prime Minister to work out expeditious plan for International competitive bidding to produce 20,000 MW coal based thermal power by 2019 from 175 Billion tons of coal resource of Thar.
The meeting was attended by Caretaker Federal Minister for Water and Power,Tariq Hamid, Deputy, Chairman Planning Commission, Dr. Muhammad Akram Sheikh, Secretaries Ministries of Petroleum and Water and Power, Managing Director, Private Power Infrastructure Board (PPIB), Chairman NEPRA, Managing Director WAPDA and representatives of Sindh government.
In his opening remarks, the Minister said the government was striving to exploit the indigenous energy resources to meet the growing need of the country.
He said power generation from vast deposits of coal in Thar is the need of the hour to overcome growing energy supply and demand gap for sustaining rapid socio-economic growth in the country.
The Minister said utilization of Thar Coal resources by employing modern mining technology and skills would be a major step ensuring energy security as well as curtailing the dependence on import of energy.
The meeting reviewed the updated progress on Thar coal development and recommended that document for indicative tariff of Thar coal be processed for international competitive bidding on urgent basis in order to invite prospective companies of repute and standing for their participation in the mega project of power generation based on the indigenous lignite coal.
http://www.app.com.pk/en/index.php?option=...1&Itemid=38================================================================================
Thank God, they're finally thinking about using the massive amount of coal we have.
Mark Sien
Feb 1 2008, 04:44 PM
Direct Carbon Fuel Cell for Efficient Utilization of Pakistan’s Coal Reserves by Adeel Ghayur
QUOTE
Pakistan has huge coal reserves which it wants to capitalize for energy production and policy makers want to develop a homegrown FC industry for future Hydrogen Economy [1]. By developing a coal based FC, in short term Pakistan would be able to capitalize on the enormous benefits which a FC has over coal combustion power systems and in the long term when the time comes for transition to hydrogen we would already be having an established technology and industry and it would be simply changing from one fuel to another. This paper discusses the stepped approach to achieve this goal.
More of the paper:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/4136870/41...rnumber=4136877Parts I'd emphasize:
QUOTE
Currently Pakistan produces 3.9 million tons of coal annually. However, the huge discovery at Thar with established technical and commercial viability of confirmed reserves of 175.5 billion tons of coal [4] has immensely increased Pakistan’s horizons for indigenous energy sources. Thus the policy of pursuing coal based
power stations is rational and logical. But this coal, be huge in size, is still limited. We need to utilize it as efficiently as possible. More importantly, seeing the future of the world – the Hydrogen based world – and FC a major part of this world, we need also to pursue the policy to start developing a fuel cell industry. FC prices
are declining continuously and the time is now ripe to step into this industry. If this time is lost then in future the FC prices would reach to such a competitive scale that starting an alien FC industry could become nearly impossible. And then Pakistan would become just as dependent on foreign Hydrogen energy as it is on oil today.
bojangles
Feb 1 2008, 05:00 PM
Wow, thats sad. We only produce 3.9 million tons of coal annually, even though we have 175.5 billion tons of coal. We should at least increase production by 100x at minimum.
Btw, does anyone know the coal reserve rankings?
Sufi
Feb 1 2008, 10:10 PM
WHAT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING !!!!
Mark Sien
Feb 1 2008, 10:15 PM
QUOTE(Sufi @ Feb 1 2008, 11:10 PM)

WHAT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING !!!!
That's an issue...but there are a lot cleaner ways to use coal, and I think coal-based fuel cells is one of the ways. Pakistan has a infant hydrogen fuel cell project, the above article is advocating that we also go heavily in coal-based fuel cells and transition to hydrogen. Besides, I don't know why you're harping on Pakistan...U.S. has a bigger pollution and green house issue.
With all its coal, Pakistan can invest and research in coal-based fuel cells; converting coal to oil; and clean coal technology...
Pakistan can also make use of Plasma waste-to-energy plants; tidal energy and solar energy.
1pakistani
Feb 1 2008, 11:12 PM
QUOTE(Sufi @ Feb 2 2008, 03:10 PM)

WHAT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING !!!!
Y is it when develping country start to put such plants up GLOBAL WARMING becomes and issue while developed countries are still damaging the earth.
Well less start from somewhere and full fil our needs than we can worry abt this stuff later. Look at china is started it self and now it build the worlds biggest dam to produce the power. So less start somewhere and we can swtich later to clearner methods.
must7
Feb 2 2008, 02:09 AM
GLOBAL WARMING
Even with comfortable economies the industrialized word is still using coal powered power plants including USA .. why when it comest o Pakistan such issues pop up.
We need cheap power including exploitation of our natural resources without import bill ..
I am an ardent fan of COAL PP in Pakistan.
Syed Arbab Ali
Feb 2 2008, 03:42 AM
WHats Wrong with Nucelar Power Plants ?
1pakistani
Feb 2 2008, 03:50 AM
QUOTE(Syed Arbab Ali @ Feb 2 2008, 08:42 PM)

WHats Wrong with Nucelar Power Plants ?
WASTE to begin with and I guess it requires more money than a coal plant. beside we have abundance of coal so y not use it for our energy needs, while for NUKE we would require importation of uranium and presently i doubt there are many countries will to sell us that.
Syed Arbab Ali
Feb 2 2008, 04:08 AM
I dont thin we need More Uranium for POwer Plant.
Coal is a Natural Gift not to be Consumed in huge numbers. what After Coal??? Again Nuclear Power.
Why not today then after sucking our Important natural resources.
shahid_2dk
Feb 2 2008, 04:26 AM
QUOTE(Syed Arbab Ali @ Feb 2 2008, 04:08 AM)

I dont thin we need More Uranium for POwer Plant.
Coal is a Natural Gift not to be Consumed in huge numbers. what After Coal??? Again Nuclear Power.
Why not today then after sucking our Important natural resources.
Well Uranium is also a natural gift not to be consumed in huge numbers

You do know that Nuclear waste has to be stored for over 100.000 years right? no BS.
1pakistani
Feb 2 2008, 07:10 AM
QUOTE(Syed Arbab Ali @ Feb 2 2008, 09:08 PM)

I dont thin we need More Uranium for POwer Plant.
Coal is a Natural Gift not to be Consumed in huge numbers. what After Coal??? Again Nuclear Power.
Why not today then after sucking our Important natural resources.
Put it simple we are a developing economy and currently facing massive storage of power which in turn is hampering our economic growth since we are facing 8+ hrs of power outage in most areas of Pakistan. COAL based power plant are cheaper than other options available and once we become somewhat good economic power we can research and change the source of power. But for time being COAL is the best and the cheapest solution for us and we should not dump it.
Like i mentioned China it only now has managed to build worlds biggest dam which would provie huge amount of power, but is been hot economy for decades. So for time being COAL is the solution, inlcuding others as well.
viper`in`style
Feb 2 2008, 07:43 AM
Just saw Interview of Minister on Geo..he Break the news that our coal reserve can be converted in to 400 billion barrel Oil reserve he told in interview that this about is more then what Iran and KSA have
P.S man 400 Billion Barrel this amount is some thing very serious i hope we can progress in this project ( he told us that project is already started with the corporation of China :)
shahid_2dk
Feb 2 2008, 11:07 AM
QUOTE(viper`in`style @ Feb 2 2008, 07:43 AM)

Just saw Interview of Minister on Geo..he Break the news that our coal reserve can be converted in to 400 billion barrel Oil reserve he told in interview that this about is more then what Iran and KSA have
P.S man 400 Billion Barrel this amount is some thing very serious i hope we can progress in this project ( he told us that project is already started with the corporation of China :)
How is that gonna work?
Coal to Oil conversion, is that even possible? :-) Or is it a trade? Coal for Oil?
Bilal
Feb 2 2008, 11:28 AM
Must have been speaking in a relative term rather than litral.
smegster
Feb 2 2008, 11:37 AM
QUOTE(shahid_2dk @ Feb 2 2008, 11:07 AM)

How is that gonna work?
Coal to Oil conversion, is that even possible? :-) Or is it a trade? Coal for Oil?
Yes it is possible, coal-to-liquids (CTL)technology was used during WWII by the Germans when their oils supplies were disrupted
http://www.iea.org/Textbase/work/2006/ciab_nov/programme.pdf
Bilal
Feb 2 2008, 11:56 AM
Wow! if it is being persued then its a very important news, also the minister said its being done in co-operation with China and as per the link provided by smegster, China seems to be well advanced in this technology.
speedyturtle
Feb 2 2008, 12:10 PM
If it was possible and they were planning on doing something like this than this would have been one of the biggest headlines on every news channel and news papers.
SPEEDY
enjoy
Bilal
Feb 2 2008, 12:18 PM
Here is an article I found:
QUOTE
ISLAMABAD, Sept 1: The government has decided to develop the Thar coal for power generation on a priority basis to overcome energy crisis following confirmed estimates that its reserves were equivalent to at least 850 trillion cubic feet (TCF) of gas — about 30 times higher than Pakistan’s proven gas reserves of 28 TCF.
“By using only two per cent of the existing coal reserves, we can generate around 20,000 megawatts for almost 40 years,” deputy chairman of the Planning Commission Dr Akram Sheikh told Dawn after presiding over a meeting on energy security. Coal mining in Thar requires a phased investment of $4 billion.
These estimates were confirmed by separate bankable feasibility studies conducted by Chinese and Russian experts. “We have so much of energy at home but we are looking for imported fuels,” he said, adding an effort was being made to correct the situation.
The studies had also confirmed that 185 billion tons of coal deposits in Pakistan were second only to 247-billion-ton reserves in the United States and much higher than 157 and 115-billion-ton reserves of Russia and China, respectively. Another senior official said the decision to accord top priority to coal was taken because there was no tangible or bankable progress on three proposed gas import pipelines.
Dr Sheikh said Thar coal reserves were equivalent to at least 400 billion barrels of oil — equivalent to oil reserves of Saudi Arabia and Iran put together. One estimate puts Pakistan’s coal energy at 576 billion barrels of oil which is equivalent to combined oil reserves of the three largest producers.
- Uh Oh…a warning sign! The calculation might be wrong unless they added in the future increase of energy demand…Oh well, global warming will become worst!!
SourceWe really need to puh it on a top priority basis for the sake of our energy/economic security which translate directly into our national security.
Added later: here is a nice link detailing Nazi Germany's synthetic oil production efforts:
Link
Saeed Khan
Feb 2 2008, 12:47 PM
This coal can be converted into gas, as claimed by the report above:
Quote: "Thar coal reserves were equivalent to at least 850 trillion cubic feet (TCF) of gas — about 30 times higher than Pakistan’s proven gas reserves of 28 TCF." We can also use this coal to produce electricity:
Quote: "Using only 2% of the existing coal reserves, we can generate around 20,000 MW (20 GW) for almost 40 years." As far as oil is concerned, Dr Sheikh is only talking about the equivalent energy output; although coal can be converted to liquid fuel as well:
Quote: "Thar coal reserves were equivalent to at least 400 billion barrels of oil — equivalent to oil reserves of Saudi Arabia and Iran put together. One estimate puts Pakistan’s coal energy at 576 billion barrels of oil which is equivalent to combined oil reserves of the three largest producers." Great News and more reasons for our enemies to burn with jealousy!
Bilal
Feb 2 2008, 12:52 PM
I think he is not talking in equivalent energy output terms(which was what I thought at first too), this figure is the same as the current minister has quoted, its the amount of synthetic crude oil that can be generated from this reserve, IMO. Its not just the energy but also think of how much we can gain in chemical industry from this.
The more I read about it the more confident I become of its feasibility in the current high oil price environment, read this guys:
LinkNotice how the sasol shares (the south african synthetic oil company) have risen by more than 350% in the last five years compared to exxon mobiles 150%!
Saeed Khan
Feb 2 2008, 01:09 PM
20,000 MW (20 GW) coal-based power projects planned:
Islamabad, Wednesday, January 30, 2008: Prime Minister Mohammedmian Soomro on Wednesday constituted a five-member inter-provincial committee to work out in 10 days a plan for international competitive bidding to produce 20,000 MW coal-based thermal power by 2019 from coal reserves in Thar.
“The power generation projects in Thar should be set up in a fair, transparent and efficient manner through international bidding,” the prime minister said while presiding over a meeting on Thar coal.
The committee, headed by the petroleum and natural resources minister, will have representatives of key stakeholders, including the Sindh government, says a press release.
The prime minister said the government was committed to utilising diverse sources of energy to meet the growing electricity needs and bridge the gap between demand and supply. “The utilisation of Thar coal resources by employing modern mining techniques will be a major step in ensuring energy security,” he added.
Mr Soomro said that in order to sustain the pace of economic development the requirement for energy had increased manifold and Thar coal could play a pivotal role in this respect. He said the country had about 185 billion tons of coal reserves and a fast-track strategy should be evolved for its maximum utilisation.
The meeting was informed that the country could generate 20,000 MW of electricity by 2019 from Thar coal reserves.
The prime minister emphasised that the share of coal in overall energy mix should be increased.
“This low-cost energy production through coal will give a competitive edge to Pakistani manufactured goods in the international market. Besides,
direct utilisation of coal for electricity generation will also be used for gasification to meet the increasing demand of natural gas in the country,” he pointed out.
This, Mr Soomro said, would not only help save billions of dollars of foreign exchange on import of oil, but would also contribute towards economic development of rural Sindh.The meeting was attended by Sindh Chief Minister Abdul Qadir Halipota, federal Minister for Water and Power Tariq Hamid, Federal Minister for Petroleum Ahsanullah Khan, Deputy Chairman Planning Commission Dr Akram Shaikh and the acting chairman of Nepra.
D
Saeed Khan
Feb 2 2008, 01:20 PM
QUOTE(Bilal @ Feb 2 2008, 11:52 PM)

I think he is not talking in equivalent energy output terms(which was what I thought at first too), this figure is the same as the current minister has quoted, its the amount of synthetic crude oil that can be generated from this reserve, IMO.
I am no expert in this field and you may be right.
At least what we can be sure about is that if Thar coal is used to produce electricity, then it is equivalent to using 576 billion barrels of oil to produce electricity; where 576 Billion barrels of oil is equal to the oil reserves of Iran + Iraq + Saudi Arabia!
Bilal
Feb 2 2008, 01:26 PM
Indeed! but gasification or generation of oil has an added advantage of it being used not only for electricity geneation but also for vehicle fuel and as raw material for our chemical industry.
QUOTE
Many believe that personal interests of some leaders in the Sindh’s ministry of mines to be blamed. Others say Chief Minister should be held responsible for non-development of Thar district because he came directly from that area. There are few who even ask why not Mr Shaukat Aziz who made it to the Prime Minister’s post by taking votes from Thar’ies and then forgot them. But it is a fact that Thar coal is blackening the faces of all.
Thar coal in Sindh province is the World’s largest coal reserve. Still, only one per cent coal is being used for power generation in Pakistan. As against this, 55 per cent electricity in neighboring India is based on coal, 58 per cent in Germany, 90 per cent in Poland, 50 per cent in Australia and 38 per cent in Russia. Just two per cent of its use for power production can ensure more than 20,000 megawatt of electricity for more than 40 years.
There are confirmed estimates that its reserves were equivalent to at least 850 trillion cubic feet (TCF) of gas – about 30 times higher than Pakistan’s proven gas reserves of 28 TCF. Students in the primary classes used to be taught decades ago that Pakistan has one of the largest coal reserves. It is a million dollar question as to why the use of these reserves is still far from reality. Why these resources remain untapped and lobbies provide joyride trips to the authorities in the energy ministries for fuel imports, both in the form of petroleum, natural gas pipelines and liquefied natural gases. A big question mark on their integrity, vision, planning and professional capacity.
The provincial government did not want to loose its contract awarding rights to the centre and it was itself incapable to doing things at its own. The provincial authorities say the centre wanted to deprive it of its constitutional rights. Power utility Wapda also has stakes. Coal mining at Thar requires a total investment of $4 billion in a phased manner. These estimates have been confirmed by separate bankable feasibility studies conducted by Chinese and Russian experts. “We have so much of energy at home but we are looking for imported fuels”, said Dr Akram Sheikh, head of the planning commission adding an effort is being made to correct this situation.
The studies have also confirmed that 185 billion tons of coal deposits in Pakistan are second only to 247 billion ton reserves in the United States and much higher than 157 and 115 billion ton reserves of Russia and China respectively. The decision to accord top most priority to coal has been taken as there was no tangible or bankable progress on three proposed gas import pipelines.
Thar coal reserves are equivalent to at least 400 billion barrels of oil - equivalent to oil reserves of Saudi Arabia and Iran put together. One estimate put Pakistan’s coal energy at 576 billion barrels of oil which is equivalent to combined oil reserves of the three largest producers including Saudi Arabia (264), Canada (179) and Iran (138).
Having failed to materialize gas import pipelines, the government was now in the process of setting up a $500 million Thar Coal Mining Company with equity participation to provide guarantee to international mining majors to develop mines because Thar reserves were about 238 meters deep compared with 270 feet deep coal deposits in Germany. The major use of Thar coal would, however, remain power generation because it was not of metallurgical or coking grade but could used for oil production, ground and under-ground gasification that could be transmitted through pipelines to any part of the country for cement and fertilizer industries.
The studies also revealed that 2,000 MMCFD (million cubic feet per day) of coal gas is equivalent to 250,000 tons of coal per day and was capable of producing 20,000mw through gasification route. As by-product, the same quantity of coal can produce 5.14 million tons of fertilizer which is higher than 4.5 million tons current production in Pakistan besides a chain industrial activity of pesticides, enamel, epoxy resins, liquid nitrogen, naphtha, methanol etc.
The President has been asked to order an enquiry as to how a Chinese group was discouraged that had offered to set up a power plant at 5.7 cents per tariff by developing the mine as well but gas plants 5.9 cents per unit and thermal plants at 14 cents per unit tariff were allowed to power plants. “It has become pretty clear that many people within the government were discouraging cheaper projects of natural resources like water and coal to promote imported fuels”, claims a senior government official. An official delegation led by Advisor to the Prime Minister on Energy would be leaving to Beijing early next month to hold road shows for attracting Chinese coal mining companies to become part of the project directly as management partners and also financial institutions. The $500 TCMC would be responsible for mining, research and introduction of latest mining and refining technology. The whole plan prepared on the basis of a year long study by Rheinbraun Engineering Company (RWE) of Germany of one coal block of Thar project, was presented to the President and the Prime Minister on July 28 and was cleared for implementation.
The company, with 49-51 per cent public and private shareholding respectively, will have a debt-equity ratio of 70:30. Of the $150 million equity, the government will have 49 per cent share to be contributed on an equal basis by the federal and provincial governments while 51 per cent shares would be offered to the private sector for investment. The remaining $350 million would be raised through loans.
The company would be run by the private sector management under a board of management. This would allow international mining firms to become part of the company to initially develop one modern mine with six million tons of annual coal production that would be enough to fuel about 1,000mw and then move on to the next mine.
The plan approved by the President and the Prime Minister envisaged unbundling of Thar Coal project into mining and power generation to bring down the size of investment in each block from $1.5 billion to $500 million. The decision stemmed from realization that mining and power generation could not go together and need to be separated and developed independently. It was also felt that energy crisis has already hit the country that might be choking the economy from next year and even the power produced from natural gas was now costing 5.9 cents per unit.
“We lost six years in attracting large companies that could finance up to $1.5 billion in mining and
production of electricity from Thar coal reserve but failed to get a breakthrough because such a big investment was not forthcoming”. It has also been decided that Wapda should be geared up to set up first coal-based thermal power plant at Thar if foreign or local investors continue to show laxity because dependence on imported fuels has to be checked.
The “mining majors” were not coming in for the Thar coal mining. Many companies showed keen interest in power generation at Thar coal but showed hesitation when the government asked them to also develop the mines themselves. An integrated project of mining and power generation required investment between $1 – 1.5 billion which was found to be very difficult. “Thar is not worth $1.5 billion investment for a foreign investor”.
The planning commission advised the government that it would not be prudent to leaving energy planning to the ministries of water and power and petroleum or their management capacity should be strengthen at the top level. The $1.5 billion Thar Coal Power Project in Sindh with an estimated production capacity of 1,000mw of electricity has already been put on hold following Rs23 billion demanded by the sponsors to lay a pipeline for fresh water which the government believed was unreasonable. A new study would be conducted to see if a power project would be feasible if established at Umarkot through transportation of coal from Thar by laying a rail track and running a regular train. The new site could also be used for power generation by using imported coal.
Thar’s four blocks were identified by the Geological Survey of Pakistan in the early 1990s while another two blocks have now been created by the Sindh government. Block one of Thar coal was earlier offered to Shenhua group of China which also hit. The GSP drilling data has indicated three water-bearing zones (aquifers) at an average depth of 50, 120 and more than 200 meters. The government has now realized that coal deposit were enough to meet country’s energy requirements for centuries and it was time to religiously focus on developing these resources, instead of continuous dependence on imported fuels.
bojangles
Feb 2 2008, 01:27 PM
Can a Mod please merge the two threads? As they are on exactly the same topic.
http://pakistanidefenceforum.com//index.php?showtopic=73063
bojangles
Feb 2 2008, 01:28 PM
QUOTE(Sufi @ Feb 1 2008, 10:10 PM)

WHAT ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING !!!!
Coal power generation is a lot cleaner then it was a few years ago. Plus the fact that we have an extensive amount of coal, meaning there would be reason to develop a more efficient way to use it.
Mark Sien
Feb 2 2008, 01:32 PM
The bloody billions if not tens or hundreds of billions we could save using our own coal could go into local hydrogen fuel-cell technology and make Pakistan one of the world's few big hydrogen power producers! Think of the markets currently unable to even use such power i.e. Africa, Middle East, parts of Southeast Asia...we can set up their power plants AND provide the fuel!
Plus we can inves the oil/coal/gas money into tidal, solar, wind, hydro, plasma (waste), etc, etc, technology!
This is Allah's gift brothers...
bojangles
Feb 2 2008, 01:36 PM
QUOTE(Mark Sien @ Feb 2 2008, 01:32 PM)

The bloody billions if not tens or hundreds of billions we could save using our own coal could go into local hydrogen fuel-cell technology and make Pakistan one of the world's few big hydrogen power producers! Think of the markets currently unable to even use such power i.e. Africa, Middle East, parts of Southeast Asia...we can set up their power plants AND provide the fuel!
Plus we can inves the oil/coal/gas money into tidal, solar, wind, hydro, plasma (waste), etc, etc, technology!
This is Allah's gift brothers...
And our coal reserves would be second only to the US! And that is what we have discovered so far! There may be even more coal in another part of the country.
Mark Sien
Feb 2 2008, 01:41 PM
QUOTE(bojangles @ Feb 2 2008, 02:36 PM)

And our coal reserves would be second only to the US! And that is what we have discovered so far! There may be even more coal in another part of the country.
We can convert our coal into gas, oil and fuel-cells...we can cut ourselves off from importing Middle Eastern oil and hold those guys accountable to more balanced trade...i.e. no more trade deficits! Plus we can expand our influence in Africa by providing them with cheap and liberal energy...in the short term with hydrocarbons, and Insh'Allah in the long-term with hydrogen-energy and/or other green technology.
bojangles
Feb 2 2008, 01:48 PM
QUOTE(Mark Sien @ Feb 2 2008, 01:41 PM)

We can convert our coal into gas, oil and fuel-cells...we can cut ourselves off from importing Middle Eastern oil and hold those guys accountable to more balanced trade...i.e. no more trade deficits! Plus we can expand our influence in Africa by providing them with cheap and liberal energy...in the short term with hydrocarbons, and Insh'Allah in the long-term with hydrogen-energy and/or other green technology.
How expensive are those converter plants (from coal to fuel-cells)? And how efficient are they?
Bilal
Feb 2 2008, 01:52 PM
Although in its infancy but plans are for upto 50% efficiency compared to around 35% which is possible through direct burning of coal.
source
bojangles
Feb 2 2008, 01:59 PM
QUOTE(Bilal @ Feb 2 2008, 01:52 PM)

Although in its infancy but plans are for upto 50% efficiency compared to around 35% which is possible through direct burning of coal.
sourceDo you happen to know the price of a plant? (If you do just give the size of the plant in relative output of electricity, and the initial cost to build).
ISI2003
Feb 2 2008, 02:00 PM
All though the resources are there, there is a large investment requirement, which should be considered, although the pay off is great
(i don't have the sources, i did thereserch about 2 years ago for a paper to the numbers may gave changed)
around 2005-2006 a chinese company bought a plant from sasol for about $6 Billion US dollars (2006 dollars)
the plant could make on a daily basis 100,000 barrels of oil at a cost of about $40 at the current price of oil at approx. $89 (as of feb 2,2008), that is a profit of nearly $49 per barrel, or about $4.9 Million a day, in a year that comes out to $1.7885 Billion of pure profit, meaning the plant could pay for it self in approx. 40 months of operations
the chinese have gone into this and boutght about 6 plants, as well as are developing their own
IF and thats a big IF the report above is true, then this could be a big way for pakistan to shift from an importer to an exporter
build a petro-chemical giant (hopefully the company will stay 100% pakistani owned so the profits can stay in pakistan)
the governent should build one plant, with ToT and in partnership at first with the chinese that are doing on a big scale
if started in 2010, we could see good results within 3 years
if it works out, pakistan could start making the coal oil and export it to china, via the rail to china that is planned
once that supply chain is set, then more and more plants could be set up, being spread across the country (giving job aleviation, taxes, etc.)
Currently pakistan imports nearly 300,000 barrels a day, three plants could supply the whole country and folow on plants could be used to export or supply pakistani companies
we should look at how the russians run a state owned oil company and not get screwed
but all this has to be done fair and square, under the law, or this can create bigger problems (ie. an independent Sindh)
this is a double edged sword, its no childs play
Bilal
Feb 2 2008, 02:06 PM
This technology is in its infancy, even in the US, the project mentioned in the source I gave also seems to be just a proof of concept which would cost ~$85 million, so we cannot at this stage compare the cost of electricity produced by FC or its installation cost to other means of power production atleast for now in my opinion.
Bilal
Feb 2 2008, 02:12 PM
6 billion is ahuge amount and is the only stumbling block that I can see.
Mangla
Feb 2 2008, 02:22 PM
All we need is some industrialists to take a gamble by opening alot of coal mines. Its up to the private sector to take the array of incentives to invest. I do not expect government to take the lead in this field, honestly if govt did invest there is greater chance of misuse of the peoples money.
ZPak
Feb 2 2008, 02:30 PM
What will the impact on the environment be. It sounds like an amazing prospect if its true and is done correctly. However we dont want to turn a huge area of Pakistan into a wasteland. This needs to be looked into very carefully and we need to have Chinese cooperation in this.
bojangles
Feb 2 2008, 02:37 PM
QUOTE(ZPak @ Feb 2 2008, 02:30 PM)

What will the impact on the environment be. It sounds like an amazing prospect if its true and is done correctly. However we dont want to turn a huge area of Pakistan into a wasteland. This needs to be looked into very carefully and we need to have Chinese cooperation in this.
If you turn the coal into fuel-cells then the impact would be minimum. Actually it would be far less carbon emissions as compared to oil.
Mangla
Feb 2 2008, 02:37 PM
ZPAK
Unless Pak takes a different route to industrilisation, which is unlikely, environmental and human suffering is bound to happen. Only beneficiaries are the state and educated/business class. If you look at other nations development you will see similiar patterns. The working class and other low groups will get the dirty end of the stick. No other way in my opinion. UK US etc have followed policy of growing now then redistribute later. Lastly China has not got a good envirnomental record, we can mimise destruction but progress usually triumphs over other concerns.
Sufi
Feb 2 2008, 02:39 PM
QUOTE(ISI2003 @ Feb 2 2008, 02:00 PM)

All though the resources are there, there is a large investment requirement, which should be considered, although the pay off is great
(i don't have the sources, i did thereserch about 2 years ago for a paper to the numbers may gave changed)
around 2005-2006 a chinese company bought a plant from sasol for about $6 Billion US dollars (2006 dollars)
the plant could make on a daily basis 100,000 barrels of oil at a cost of about $40 at the current price of oil at approx. $89 (as of feb 2,2008), that is a profit of nearly $49 per barrel, or about $4.9 Million a day, in a year that comes out to $1.7885 Billion of pure profit, meaning the plant could pay for it self in approx. 40 months of operations
the chinese have gone into this and boutght about 6 plants, as well as are developing their own
IF and thats a big IF the report above is true, then this could be a big way for pakistan to shift from an importer to an exporter
build a petro-chemical giant (hopefully the company will stay 100% pakistani owned so the profits can stay in pakistan)
the governent should build one plant, with ToT and in partnership at first with the chinese that are doing on a big scale
if started in 2010, we could see good results within 3 years
if it works out, pakistan could start making the coal oil and export it to china, via the rail to china that is planned
once that supply chain is set, then more and more plants could be set up, being spread across the country (giving job aleviation, taxes, etc.)
Currently pakistan imports nearly 300,000 barrels a day, three plants could supply the whole country and folow on plants could be used to export or supply pakistani companies
we should look at how the russians run a state owned oil company and not get screwed
but all this has to be done fair and square, under the law, or this can create bigger problems (ie. an independent Sindh)
this is a double edged sword, its no childs play
It is foolish to export coal to china, we should focus more on developing our energy needs first and at the same time focus on working a feasble plan out with the chineese which focuses on refined resource production instead of just raw resources, because with time they are gonna use better means of pulling the coal out, this will lead to a conflict of intrest for the Chineese when we would ask them to meet our own energy needs through plants or TOT...
bojangles
Feb 2 2008, 02:43 PM
QUOTE(Sufi @ Feb 2 2008, 02:39 PM)

It is foolish to export coal to china, we should focus more on developing our energy needs first and at the same time focus on working a feasble plan out with the chineese which focuses on refined resource production instead of just raw resources, because with time they are gonna use better means of pulling the coal out, this will lead to a conflict of intrest for the Chineese when we would ask them to meet our own energy needs through plants or TOT...
He meant after we deal with our energy needs. Which wouldn't be that hard if we actually started using this coal.
ZPak
Feb 2 2008, 02:45 PM
QUOTE(Mangla @ Feb 2 2008, 02:37 PM)

ZPAK
Unless Pak takes a different route to industrilisation, which is unlikely, environmental and human suffering is bound to happen. Only beneficiaries are the state and educated/business class. If you look at other nations development you will see similiar patterns. The working class and other low groups will get the dirty end of the stick. No other way in my opinion. UK US etc have followed policy of growing now then redistribute later. Lastly China has not got a good envirnomental record, we can mimise destruction but progress usually triumphs over other concerns.
The US-UK and to a certain extent even China did not know the effect of Carbon emissions in the environment, only till like the 80's. The human population is much more educated in this field now.
Pakistan can learn from the mistakes of previous industrialized nations and maybe bypass some of the negative aspects of mass industrialization. I know there is massive scope in trying to develope clean fuel technology, and i think Pakistan with this find should be investing in such technologies.
Mangla
Feb 2 2008, 02:58 PM
QUOTE(ZPak @ Feb 2 2008, 03:45 PM)

The US-UK and to a certain extent even China did not know the effect of Carbon emissions in the environment, only till like the 80's. The human population is much more educated in this field now.
Pakistan can learn from the mistakes of previous industrialized nations and maybe bypass some of the negative aspects of mass industrialization. I know there is massive scope in trying to develope clean fuel technology, and i think Pakistan with this find should be investing in such technologies.
Too expensive. All are industries esp textiles are locked in fierce competition where price matters, the owners are already complaining of high prices from conventional sources. New technology or existing renewables would need customers to pay higher tariffs.
Minimising the effects seems to be only way like concentrating on effiency. Large scale use of renewables would be difficult for Pak to achieve. If you look at EU cut in emissions through use of renewables. They are very modest but still are unlikely to be achieved.
bojangles
Feb 2 2008, 03:03 PM
QUOTE(Mangla @ Feb 2 2008, 02:58 PM)

Too expensive. All are industries esp textiles are locked in fierce competition where price matters, the owners are already complaining of high prices from conventional sources. New technology or existing renewables would need customers to pay higher tariffs.
Minimising the effects seems to be only way like concentrating on effiency. Large scale use of renewables would be difficult for Pak to achieve. If you look at EU cut in emissions through use of renewables. They are very modest but still are unlikely to be achieved.
And its not like coal usage is as 'dirty' (in terms of carbon emissions) as it was a decade ago, or even a few years. Its actually pretty clean now, and by setting up plants now, we would be be building the cleaner plants, thus having less emissions as compared to other countries. Don't forget that by using coal we would not need to use oil for electricity generation and so we would be saving emissions from that.
must7
Feb 3 2008, 07:44 AM
All we need is some industrialists to take a gamble by opening alot of coal mines. Its up to the private sector to take the array of incentives to invest. I do not expect government to take the lead in this field, honestly if govt did invest there is greater chance of misuse of the peoples money.
Mangla .. 3 years on the road and no private company managed to start up due to not real interest + vested interest (MPA / MNA's) who are illegally taking out coal and selling on good profit.
In fact even the infrastructure did not startup ! Hence, the GOP has started a public joint venture company forgot the name after seeing negative results which in turn will start coal exploration.
On the arrival of Gen. Musharaff in 1998, cement producers were given a 3 year tax free import break for importing coal converters for utilization in cement industry. Today we are importing coal for our cement industry. If we start extracting coal with open pit quary technology we could at least stop the import of coal for our cement industry who have benefited in millions due to the conversion.
I just hope this technology gets more coverage so that people start asking the question to when we will really utilize our coal reserves which are in the middle of our desert ! and will really give livelihood to many poor people of Pakistan.
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