first think seriously and then post with descriptions.

In a fighter to fighter only I think it has to be one of these:


Eurofighter Typhoon / Rafale
F-18E
F-15

The other ones don't get near enough to these.

Su-30MKI/MKM series?

I seriously believe that the SU series are no match for the three planes I've just listed.

Has anyone read the Specs on the newest F16, supercruise + Aesa and lots more... My vote f16

Su-30MKI with Irbis radar (2010) should be at least as capable as Super Hornet and surpassing current Rafale.

Irbis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yELuKJFDM80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhejuE7seNM...feature=related

Quite simply, no.

F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is the most capable fighter in service besides F-22. Su-30MKI is simply an overhyped experiment paid for by India. There is alot more to a plane than a radar. Otherwise we'd have Boeing 747 with huge radars and crapload of air-to-air missiles.

Okay. You have right to your opinion.

I personally donot know any Boeing 747 that can fly like a SU-30MKI. Not in this world atleast.
Though I really am not sure about the world you live in.


Though I agree with your first statement, that last sentence in the post makes it the most retarded post ever, atleast unofficially.

Well the question is not about the Irbis radar available from probabably 2010, but the current best 4.5 generation fighter. Otherwise let me assure you that the Russians / Indians aren't the only one developing new stuff to improve their plane

thank for the replies. i voted for j-10. because it is the best 4.5 generation fighter from china.

Best fighter from China, but not best 4.5 generation in the world

The Typhoon....

You are aware that the Super Hornet is a completely revolutionary design from the Hornet correct? The only reason they retained the designation was to get funding from the Senate and Congress since the navy knew the politicans would never approve a new fighter program, so they billed it as an upgrade instead. The amount of modification is very extensive, involving new engines, radar, avionics, material and even airframe. If the old Hornet was good at everything but great at nothing, then the new F/A-18E/F is now great at everything.


It's an example to illustrate the fallacy judging a plane by its radar only. The only thing retarded is you not getting the point. Now if Su-30MKI can even make it to the list as a 4.5 gen, then its spot is at the very end of the line. Russian simply used Indian money to finance their experimental radar and TVC designs, which helped them greatly in their new Su-35BM. India on the other hand, had been made a sucker out of the deal.


It's a toss-up between the Super Hornet and Eurofighter, but given the range of missions and adaptability of the Super Hornet can perform at the moment, it makes the Typhoon looks like a one trick pony.

There has never been even one instance in modern history, when the money from weapons sales have not been used by the seller to finance their own R&D. Indians are about as much of suckers as the Great Chinese that bought the license for SU-27s and off the shelf 3u-30MKKs for $55million each.

Su-30MKI is an excellent plane and considering the technological levels of the airforces around India (including the Land of Poisoned Scorpion), it was a good buy. Your criticism of the Su-30MKI has more to do with envy then anything else.

Apart from its weakness in hiding its RCS, which is overcome to an extent by the range of its radar, not many people find any other concerns with the plane.

Super Hornets are a different breed altogether. The level of sensor fusion and sophestication in terms of electronics achieved on those is uncomparable to anyother plane (4+ generation) in the world at the moment.

Unless ofcourse we compare those puny Super Hornets with the mighty J-10, that flies with the divine wind and stings like a poison scorpion.

I hope someday the stupid Americans learn from the mighty Chinese and start making their own jets with their own radars and engines instead of importing them. But alas....................................

Flanker has a much smaller frontal RCS compared to F-15 Eagle series, hence it is dubbed "F-15's nemesis". Su-30MKI's RCS is actually not that big, especially when radar-absorbent material would be added to key radar reflecting areas starting in 2010.

the topic is abour current weapons, not your wet dreams aabout weapons.

Currently... you mean today? Are Super Hornet block 2 operational today, the one with the APG-79 AESA? If so, then it would be a toss up between Japanese F-2 and Super Hornet, and I would say Super Hornet just cuz I'm pro-American.

i don't know, but they will be.

your talking about possible add-ons that have not been agreed.

it says current, do u have a problem understanding what that means?

Su-30MKI block 3 is scheduled for 2010, with Irbis radar and maybe radar-absorbent material. Have to check on the second point. If we are talking about today, then I'll say F-2 or Super Hornet. These two have AESA, but Typhoon has SC. Rafale and J-10 don't really have anything "special".

have you got any information to confirm that?

when do get that, can you confirm what the rCS f it will be?

once you know that, then start claiming it can do this and it can do that.

Also anoher point about the stupid mki, it might be able to see you miles away, but it can only engage you at the reach of it's weapons, which isn't all that.

Seeing first is still a great advantage. It means your enemy might be able to stay out of your detection range and maneuver behind you, all the while keeping you in his detection range, especially if he has a greater speed or dash speed and greater range and greater maneuverability. If that happens, you probably won't know what hit you.

Forget the SU30 MKI even exists.

My vote goes to the Rafael which in 2005 in excercises beat the F18 3-1

It wont be that big of an advantage once pakistan get AWACS. As far as j10 is concerned we dont know the exact specs of the plane neither have they officially said anything anything but from what i can see and heard jf17 would be as potent as our f16 atleast the next batch will be and than pakistan would get f16 as well so j10 has to be alot better than jf17 and f16.


SPEEDY
enjoy

Yes, when you throw in AWACs, everything would change. I was comparing just planes.

Funny, considering the fact China received Su-27SK in 1992, all deliveries completed before 1996 and there hasn't been a single order for more. In fact, the basic SK version will be retired within two years and they have been pull from frontline duty to pilot training. The Su-30MKK had a specialized naval strike role in mind, and its on-board systems and airframe are specifically modified for that. Granted it's nowhere as complex as Su-30MKI, it's certainly more reliable. It performed admirably without any problems in its service life. There hasn't been a single order from China for more Flankers since 2002. I can't say the same thing about Su-30MKI program plagued by problems from the start, ranging from TVC, radar to even contract.

The Su-30MKI sounds great on paper, but it still does not cover up the fact that Russians gave India immature technologies and used them as lab rats for their systems. I am not even certain it should deserve the 4.5 gen title, as I consider even the Su-35BM is barely 4.5 gen. There is no envy involved, just some well known facts. Sorry, but there is nothing worth of my envy from India, except how your trains can hold 3 or 4 times the maximum passenger capacity.

As for J-10, it may not be in the same league as Super Hornet or Typhoon, but at least equipped with a domestic radar (Type 1473). Unlike India, China is capable of producing its own radars and engines for its aircrafts. The latest batch of AL-31F engines was purchased early last year, and it will be the last batch to go on the J-10. WS-10A has already been certified and equipped on J-11B, and the program will extend to J-10 late this year.


The most important aspect of RCS reduction is in the external shape of the aircraft. No matter how much composite material and radar absorbant paint you use, their effects are minimal compared to what a properly designed exterior. The fact that the Su-30MKI inherited the airframe of Su-27 family means that it will never have any significant reduction.

A F-16C/D from U.S. airforce will outperform any F-2. Having an AESA does not automatically translate into superior capability. The current version J-10 is not in the same league as the 4.5 gen planes. The Super Hornet is by far the most capable plane after F-22.

What are you talking about? The agreement was in 1995, and the first plane rolled out of the factory in 1998, with full production starting in 2000. Stop making things up, bro.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j11.asp

Even I remember the Su-27SK deal. I was about 10 years old back then, in 1995.

Again, as humans, we are naturally biased. If Su-30MKI was sold to China, Pakistani people would say "Holy crap, our friends got such a COOL plane!." Since it's sold to India instead, Pakistani posters would try to put it down. It's okay, no one is to blame. It's human nature after all.

J-11 is not the same deal as Su-27SK. J-11 refers to the Flankers produced in China while Su-27SK and Su-27UBK were imported entirely. I want to slam my head into a wall everytime you post something stupid like this. Do your research, this is the page you should be looking at.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/su27.asp


A similar deal was offered, but it was turned down in favour of the Su-30MK2. Since the J-10 were expected to be in service soon back then, China needed a naval strike platform and did not see MKI as matured technology, hence they went for the more reliable and less complex option.

thank you for replies. untill now out of 31 votes eurofighter got more than half of the votes that is 18! second j-10 with 5 votes and f-18e is third with 4 votes.

J10 is second on wat basis.

PLZ explain the world class AESA or the world class BVR & WVR missles that it carries.

THE supercruise capability.

THE EXCERCISES against the HORNETS OR RAFAEL where it has come out on top.

THE J10 is off spring of the ISRAELI FAILED LAVI project from the 1990S

no way can these live with Rafael OR TYPHOON or even the latest electroinic packed F18E

seriusly thinking the F16, f15, f2, SU-30, mirage.....are all not 4.5 generation fighters....the .5 stands for latest in avionics and latest in avionics involves latest in ergenomics....thus these fighters can not be classed as 4.5 gen...

although the JF-17 can because of its ergonomic avionics....and carefree characteristics....

All breakthrough technologies are considered immature. At the time, there was not one fighter with TVC. And if there were any problems with the MKKs or J-11s, we wouldnt know that, would we now? Such is the power of your goverment. Just like we were told 1 J-10 beat 10 sukhois. Deceit, lies, and divine breezes.




Sure the Russians used India as lab rats. But it was an experiment that paid them both. If those technologies were so bad, India could opt for basic sukhois and remove TVC and such, from the requirements.
Neither Su-30MKI nor Su-35BM is 4.5 generation, you are right on that. J-10 is 4.5 gen on the other hand. Right?



WS-10A or whatever cannot simply be compared to a mature engine made by a country thats been making engines for decades now. Acceptance of WS-10 is a national decision based on pride. There is a reason why only 2-3-4 countries can make engines. WS-10A is an attempt by China to join the club, and an excellent attempt at that. I give you that.
India is admittedly 10-15 years behind China. Wait till we make them the new Japan.;-)

This vote thing is rigged.

J-10 IS numero uno.

It doesnt need AESA or missiles. It doesnt even need the Great WS-10A (first decent turbofan to come out of China, mind you), and the Great Type 1471 radar to be number one.
All it needs is the divine wind.

thank you bro but i was talking about...

f16 in (for india) block 60 (for uae)
f15k (for south korea)
su-30mkk/mki/mkm and su-35 etc (almost same fighter)
mirage2000-9

etc
they are not good to be 4.5 except indian mki?

my choice

1 j-10
2 eurofighter
3 f-18e
4 rafale
6 f16
7 f15
8 f2
9 mirage
10 su30

Heh trying to pull the dictatorship card? Far from covering things up, the government itself reported quality problems in early batch of J-11 back in the late 1990's. They also reported that several MKK and MK2 crashed during training. I guess this is all the Indians can resort back to when they ran out of argument.

I am trying to look for the part where I stated J-10 belongs up there with Super Hornet or Typhoon, but I am unable to find any. I think it's safe to conclude you pull that part out of your butt.

The WS-10A has longer service life and similar amount of maximum thrust than AL-31FN. The engine itself began testing back in 2002 and did not enter service until late last year to allow technicians to work out its problems. Now it is officially certified for J-11B and the next batch of J-10. You also seem to be ignorant on Chinese engines. We have been making them since 1960's, and WS-10A is simply the first attempt at a high performance turbofan.

You will never be Japan with all the illiterates and backward infrastructure. Even of most valued software industry is now smaller than China. In order for you to surpass us, we'd would have to stand still for 2 decades. Our goal is the catch up with U.S, not compare ourselves to an inferior opponent.

Anybody that reads through our posts will know who's evading and ignoring questions.



I never said you did. Read the post again.
And lets not talk about butts. We all know about the Great Chinese Squat Toilets. And we all also know about the Divine Wind that blows out of those same toilets. No wonder the Great J-10 doesnt use any fuel.



Obviously I am ignorant about the Great Chinese engines, just like rest of the world. And hence my point.;-)
By the way, how long does the Great WS-10A take to reach that maximum thrust? How does it compare to AL-31FN?



You have to be blind to believe I am Indian.

What was the literacy rate in Japan at the end of WW2?
And do you wanna compare Indian and the Great Chinese software exports?

Funny, the problems with Su-30MKI is well documented. Still want to argue how great it is or how Russians used India as a lab rat?

So you admit that you are making up facts about J-10 and pulling the "Divine wind" stuff out of your butt.

It has longer service life and thrust than AL-31FN, but longer start up time in the range of a minute. Most importantly, every component is produced by China.

I am sorry. I should have known you're martian.


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2005/0...32200750800.htm

Japan already achieved 95% literacy rate in 1900, higher than India today. Even if Japan stood still, you wouldn't be able to catch up. The problem with India is that they over-plan and under-deliver. Dream about catching up to China first before talking about Japan.

Sure we can compare software industry. I think it's time to burst the Indian software myth bubble.

Please let us know.

i have changed my mind. i read about Raytheon APG-79 and other electronics of F-18e... so my new chart..

1. J-10 China
2. F-18E USA
3. Eurofighter Typhoon Germany/UK/Italy/Spain
4. Rafale France
5. F-15E USA

J-10 does not belong on in the top 5, not in its current state. If you must compare, it's roughly in the same league and serve the same function as Mirage 2000-5 MK2.

lol why? j-10 is voted best fighter after typhoon and much better than rafale and f-18e. mirage 2000-5 mk2 is much less capable than j-10 which is a 4.5 generation fighter.

MiG 35 is the best if equipped with GE turbine, Eurofighter all glass multi displays, Rafale's Radar and Meteor , AAMRAMS and Aim 9X .
The Russians r asking for 75$ mil without any of the above. I guess it's atleast 40 mil$$ overpriced.

For Pakistan 48 rafales would be best as a gap filler until Chinese tech improves. One Squadron in Sargodha and One at Masroor Karachi.

So you are indeed blind. Ive already said, Ruskies "indeed used Indians as lab rats."
And I also said, that "it was an experiment that paid them both."

Read my post again. Unfortunately for you, its written in English.



Every person that has even an ounce of IQ left in them, knows that J-10 flies with Divine Blessing, and hence the term "Divine Wind."
BTW these kind of terms are quite popular in the Chinese media and with Chinese military strategists.



Like I said before, "WS-10A is an attempt by China to join the club, and an excellent attempt at that. I give you that."

Can you please explain the significance of a minute delay in the startup time of a fighter?



Going by your posts, I am sorry, you are either blind or cannot read English. So before you go around calling me a Martian, please make use of the following links:

Blind User
English Class

And, you are indeed Very Welcome.



Doesnt the blindness get you in trouble sometimes?

Population of Japan in 1900: 44 million
Literacy Rate (provided by you): 95%
Total literate people: about 42 million people

Population of India now: about 1000 million
Literacy Rate: about 65%
Total literate people: about 165 million

I donot see why we cant make them the new Japan, once they open up to the US just like the Japanese did in 1945-46.
Have fun being envious.
Green is a good color. Its my favorite color too. St. Patricks day and all;-)

For the sake of sanity: Deleted.

1. EF
2. Rafale
3. Super Hornet (though I personally would hate to fly it)
4. F16 (very latest blocks)
5. J10
6. Su30 MKI (it is below J10 because I think J10 has more potential, otherwise I'd say they are tied in performance at the moment)

Bojangles, Ive read your posts time and again, and always, youve made quite sensible and logical additions to ongoing discussions.
Now logically thinking, please help me find an answer to the following quagmire (its a hypothetical situation):

Lets say a company A was using the latest version of Microsoft Windows as their Operating System. But after a while, that same company came out with their own Operating System. Now while the bugs in the Windows OS were known and getting fixes, and as my friend OP1 mentioned, "well-documented", the bugs in the new operating system were never made public. What was made public by the company A though, was the fact that their OS was somehow 6-10 times better than the Microsoft OS.
With no public documentation, and no unbiased observers present, how can the words of the company A be believed? Specially since, that new OS was that company's first real attempt at making an OS. Most of its components are either still in testing, or have just entered production for the first time.

In all humbleness, I ask you, how can you believe that Company A's OS is tied with the Microsoft OS , in terms of performance?
Please do keep in mind that Microsoft has years of experience in making OSs, and their OS has seen competition with other OSs worldwide.

Well if you didn't trust the words of Company A, you wouldn't have anything to go off of, so the discussion would end up being pointless. But isn't it also reasonable to suggest that Company A, knowing the problems of Windows OS, fixed the problems (that were known to Windows OS) and decided to not make public the remainder of the bugs in case it benefited Windows OS. Instead Company A fixed the problems without having a press conference on it (which would be the market smart approach). Remember Company A's affiliate Company P, which is buying the new operating system, has a high standard for their products, and would not buy the product if it contained major bugs. And remember, Company A tested out their operating system against a less advanced version of Windows OS, and so they would be the most reliable source for an overall comparison.

Just as I expected, thats a good, thoughtful and a logical post. Just in case, Windows OS is equivalent to the Sukhoi.

Anything and everything that comes out in the form of a press release from Company A ::Cough Divine Land Cough::, is usually considered by most, to be psy-ops and bogus, to say the least. Its a privately owned (versus publicly) and run company. ::Cough Privately==Communist Cough::

Besides that point, the " well ducumented problems" in Windows OS that my very very dear friend OP1 mentioned arent related with the version Company A uses, but are instead related to the version Company I uses, examples being TVC, radar etc.
And obviously those problems have nothing to do with the new OS.
I am not saying the new OS has bugs, I am just saying that it simply cannot be compared to Windows OS which is a well tested and documented product made by a company that without a doubt has tons of experience in making such systems.
Obviously if the new OS did have bugs, we would never know about them. Such is the beauty of a privately run company.

In simpler words, the Great J-10 "Divine Wind" has a looooong way to go before it can be compared with a Sukhoi or a F-16 or a F-18.