NEW DELHI: India, which recently staged its first military exercises with China, is ready to carry out naval manoeuvres with Pakistan, the navy chief has said. Admiral Sureesh Mehta made the offer late Thursday on the sidelines of the inaugural Indian Ocean Naval Symposium (IONS) in New Delhi. "It would have followed as a matter of course if they Pakistan were here," he replied to questions on the possibility of a joint naval manoeuvre with Pakistan. However, a first exercise with Pakistan may not happen in Indian waters, the admiral said. "But now I suppose it exercise may happen in a third country," Mehta said. Twenty-six navies have sent senior representatives including Australia, Egypt and France to the forum, seen by experts as an effort by New Delhi to assert its strategic presence.
Interesting. One the one hand it is an opportunity for them to scope us out, on the other hand it is an opportunity for us to do the same.
I think we should decline the offer. From a naval perspective we are on the back foot, we don't want them knowing any of our weaknesses or strengths that they may be unaware of.
I think we should decline the offer. From a naval perspective we are on the back foot, we don't want them knowing any of our weaknesses or strengths that they may be unaware of.
theres nothing wrong in this...we should always welcome avenues of dialogue and communications. other enemys do it wy shouldnt we?
Nobody in histroy has ever war gamed with a countr they could go t war with at the drop of a hat.
China and India have a disagreement, Pakistan and India hate each other.
Why give away our military secrets?
China and India have a disagreement, Pakistan and India hate each other.
Why give away our military secrets?
Ditto
QUOTE(platinum786 @ Feb 15 2008, 05:47 PM) 
Nobody in histroy has ever war gamed with a countr they could go t war with at the drop of a hat.
China and India have a disagreement, Pakistan and India hate each other.
Why give away our military secrets?
China and India have a disagreement, Pakistan and India hate each other.
Why give away our military secrets?
A question bro can't india find out our weaknesses from other countries we have had naval exercises with?
I think there are gentlemens agreements in place.
Potentailly another nation could pass on that information, but that would mean alligning themselves with India.
The nations we etnd to game with are friendly to us.
Also it depends entirely on the nature of information documented. we tend to war game stuff like patrolling and secuirt rather than warefare, included parties tend to focus on those aspects rather than warfare capability, with india however they'd still be trying to suss us out and visa versa even if it was some non war related games.
Potentailly another nation could pass on that information, but that would mean alligning themselves with India.
The nations we etnd to game with are friendly to us.
Also it depends entirely on the nature of information documented. we tend to war game stuff like patrolling and secuirt rather than warefare, included parties tend to focus on those aspects rather than warfare capability, with india however they'd still be trying to suss us out and visa versa even if it was some non war related games.
Thanks for info Bro
Clever try by indians, but if you have even an ounce of common sense in you, you would know that a country whose strategic war plans include a naval blockade of your coastline ..... well need I say more inregards to what Pakistan's answer would be??
Exactly. It's completely nonsensical.
They know that it would be bad PR for the PN to lose the war game, therefore to try and win we must try hard. That would mean showig our hand, allowing them to prepare for it. The PN is under going a lot of change and India wants to know what is going on.
They know that it would be bad PR for the PN to lose the war game, therefore to try and win we must try hard. That would mean showig our hand, allowing them to prepare for it. The PN is under going a lot of change and India wants to know what is going on.
Nothing new..Ayub Khan also offer india to have join exercise..and their answer is we are exercise against???:)
I tell u they are really interested in our subs & their tactics - we were one of the first nations to operate submarines in Asia - even before india - in any conflict the subs would wait in sea lanes vital for their navy, so it is vital for them. They are our adversary - always have been, always will, the best case senario whe can have once Kashmir is resolved - is have a cold peace.
i think both countries should do some naval exercise on a low level basis. May be a in the field of anti piracy , search and rescue , customs , etc. Exercise involving the Subs are the last in preference level.
For a sovereign nation such as Pakistan, it is imperative to become self-reliant and self-sufficient in both capabilities and the means to produce those capabilities. We do not need, nor require to engage in any so called 'Joint' naval excersizes with india. This is a country with whome we have fought three wars, still have disputes over territorial claims and are actively being targetted in a proxy war thru the indian back channels in Afghanistan and also as a media offensive which targets the image of Pakistan.
So as a sovereign nation, Pakistan should be looking to strengthen its coastal security with the establishment of a powerful navy and a strong coast guard service. Both Pakistan Navy and Pakistan Coast Guard should be given its due share in the defence and law enforcement budgets. A powerful navy would deter any foreign force from harming our maritime interests in the Arabian Sea and beyond. A strong coast guard would be a strong deterrent against smugglers and pirates.
It is imperative to recognize the significance of a dedicated coast guard service, as it defines parameters and jurisdictions. PN would concern itself with defending Pakistan's coastal territories, with PCG would be given the responsibility of protecting its maritime economic & immigration interests. Both will have their own jurisdictions, however both would be in constant communication to work together.
So as a sovereign nation, Pakistan should be looking to strengthen its coastal security with the establishment of a powerful navy and a strong coast guard service. Both Pakistan Navy and Pakistan Coast Guard should be given its due share in the defence and law enforcement budgets. A powerful navy would deter any foreign force from harming our maritime interests in the Arabian Sea and beyond. A strong coast guard would be a strong deterrent against smugglers and pirates.
It is imperative to recognize the significance of a dedicated coast guard service, as it defines parameters and jurisdictions. PN would concern itself with defending Pakistan's coastal territories, with PCG would be given the responsibility of protecting its maritime economic & immigration interests. Both will have their own jurisdictions, however both would be in constant communication to work together.
QUOTE
This is a country with whome we have fought three wars
UK, France, Germany, America fought 2 huge wars, way bigger than the '65 and '71 wars, yet now they are cooperating as allies. I'm sure Pakistan and India can find a similar solution, no?
They want to record the signature of our Agosta 90 Bs and to exploit our Navy's weaknesses.
PN should say no untill a possibility of war is totally zero.
QUOTE(2 aliph 5 @ Feb 15 2008, 04:53 PM)
They want to record the signature of our Agosta 90 Bs and to exploit our Navy's weaknesses.
PN should say no untill a possibility of war is totally zero.
PN should say no untill a possibility of war is totally zero.
I highly doubt they are concerned about three Agosta 90Bs, which do not have API still. They have ten upgraded Kilos and are constructing six Scorpenes.
QUOTE(pirateofthecarribean @ Feb 15 2008, 04:56 PM)
I highly doubt they are concerned about three Agosta 90Bs, which do not have API still. They have ten upgraded Kilos and are constructing six Scorpenes.
First of all, whenever you talk to me, live in present and dont give me futuristic figures !!
Out of those 10 kilos, How many are at sea and how many are being overhauled. Dont tell me all 10 are at sea.
Agosta 90-Bs are more quieter and deadlier then the upgraded Kilos. Heck, they cant even fire an anti ship missile as of yet !!
Our last Agosta already have AIP. First one named Al-Khalid is at Karachi Shipyard as of now being installed with an AIP.
QUOTE(2 aliph 5 @ Feb 15 2008, 04:59 PM)
First of all, whenever you talk to me, live in present and dont give me futuristic figures !!
Out of those 10 kilos, How many are at sea and how many are being overhauled. Dont tell me all 10 are at sea.
Agosta 90-Bs are more quieter and deadlier then the upgraded Kilos. Heck, they cant even fire an anti ship missile as of yet !!
Out of those 10 kilos, How many are at sea and how many are being overhauled. Dont tell me all 10 are at sea.
Agosta 90-Bs are more quieter and deadlier then the upgraded Kilos. Heck, they cant even fire an anti ship missile as of yet !!
Actually Kilos are very very quite, hence they've been dubbed "black holes" by NATO. IN Kilos have been upgraded with the Klub anti-ship missiles, which have a range of more than 200 km. http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo877/
QUOTE(pirateofthecarribean @ Feb 15 2008, 05:02 PM)
Actually Kilos are very very quite, hence they've been dubbed "black holes" by NATO. IN Kilos have been upgraded with the Klub anti-ship missiles, which have a range of more than 200 km. http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kilo877/
Get your facts right.
There is not even ONE Indian Kilo that can fire the klub missile as of right now !!
QUOTE(2 aliph 5 @ Feb 15 2008, 05:07 PM)
Get your facts right.
There is not even ONE Indian Kilo that can fire the klub missile as of right now !!
There is not even ONE Indian Kilo that can fire the klub missile as of right now !!
You don't even trust a reliable source like naval-technology.com? A subsidiary site even has J-10 in it. http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/j-10/
QUOTE(pirateofthecarribean @ Feb 15 2008, 05:08 PM)
You don't even trust a reliable source like naval-technology.com? A subsidiary site even has J-10 in it. http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/j-10/
Russian-upgraded Indian sub hit by Klub problems
By Rahul Bedi
21 January 2008
Delivery of the refitted Sindhughosh-class (Kilo) submarine INS Sindhuvijay to the Indian Navy (IN) is to be delayed by a reported six months due to problems with its land-attack cruise missile system.
The IN has refused to take possession of the boat after its Novator Alfa Klub SS-N-27 (3M54E1) missiles failed to strike the designated target during six trial firings in the Barents Sea between September and November 2007. A navy source said the missile had veered "several kilometers" from its objective.
A spokesman for the Zvyozdochka shipyard near St Petersburg, where Sindhuvijay has been undergoing a refit since 2005, was quoted by Russia's RIA Novosti news service as saying that the boat had successfully completed sea trials in November, but that shortcomings with the Klub-S missile system persisted.
Consequently, the 50-man IN crew waiting to bring the submarine home is to return to India soon, adding yet another irritant to the navy's mounting animosity towards Russia over technical problems, delays and cost overruns in several naval and other defence programmes.
The collective setbacks prompted IN chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta to call on his government to reduce its dependence for military hardware on Russia, which currently supplies around 70 per cent of India's defence needs.
Image: INS Sindhuvijay (credit unknown)
Janes
^^^
This article is from Janes and dated Jan 21st 2008.
Now, let me say it again:
There is not even one Indian Kilo that can fire KLUB missile !!
QUOTE(2 aliph 5 @ Feb 15 2008, 05:14 PM)
Russian-upgraded Indian sub hit by Klub problems
By Rahul Bedi
21 January 2008
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Delivery of the refitted Sindhughosh-class (Kilo) submarine INS Sindhuvijay to the Indian Navy (IN) is to be delayed by a reported six months due to problems with its land-attack cruise missile system.
The IN has refused to take possession of the boat after its Novator Alfa Klub SS-N-27 (3M54E1) missiles failed to strike the designated target during six trial firings in the Barents Sea between September and November 2007. A navy source said the missile had veered "several kilometers" from its objective.
A spokesman for the Zvyozdochka shipyard near St Petersburg, where Sindhuvijay has been undergoing a refit since 2005, was quoted by Russia's RIA Novosti news service as saying that the boat had successfully completed sea trials in November, but that shortcomings with the Klub-S missile system persisted.
Consequently, the 50-man IN crew waiting to bring the submarine home is to return to India soon, adding yet another irritant to the navy's mounting animosity towards Russia over technical problems, delays and cost overruns in several naval and other defence programmes.
The collective setbacks prompted IN chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta to call on his government to reduce its dependence for military hardware on Russia, which currently supplies around 70 per cent of India's defence needs.
Image: INS Sindhuvijay (credit unknown)
Janes
^^^
This article is from Janes and dated Jan 21st 2008.
Now, let me say it again:
There is not even one Indian Kilo that can fire KLUB missile !!
By Rahul Bedi
21 January 2008
Article Tools Full Article for Subscribers
Product Homepage
Contact Our Sales Team
Print This Page
Email This To A Friend
Delivery of the refitted Sindhughosh-class (Kilo) submarine INS Sindhuvijay to the Indian Navy (IN) is to be delayed by a reported six months due to problems with its land-attack cruise missile system.
The IN has refused to take possession of the boat after its Novator Alfa Klub SS-N-27 (3M54E1) missiles failed to strike the designated target during six trial firings in the Barents Sea between September and November 2007. A navy source said the missile had veered "several kilometers" from its objective.
A spokesman for the Zvyozdochka shipyard near St Petersburg, where Sindhuvijay has been undergoing a refit since 2005, was quoted by Russia's RIA Novosti news service as saying that the boat had successfully completed sea trials in November, but that shortcomings with the Klub-S missile system persisted.
Consequently, the 50-man IN crew waiting to bring the submarine home is to return to India soon, adding yet another irritant to the navy's mounting animosity towards Russia over technical problems, delays and cost overruns in several naval and other defence programmes.
The collective setbacks prompted IN chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta to call on his government to reduce its dependence for military hardware on Russia, which currently supplies around 70 per cent of India's defence needs.
Image: INS Sindhuvijay (credit unknown)
Janes
^^^
This article is from Janes and dated Jan 21st 2008.
Now, let me say it again:
There is not even one Indian Kilo that can fire KLUB missile !!
Thank you for providing a source. I'm sick of hearing people talk out of their a$$. Good find bro. Well, I bet the problem would be solved in due time.
QUOTE(pirateofthecarribean @ Feb 15 2008, 05:15 PM)
Thank you for providing a source. I'm sick of hearing people talk out of their a$$. Good find bro. Well, I bet the problem would be solved in due time.
There will be further testing after 6 moths. Dont know how long will it take to complete successfull testing. You are looking at atleast another year !!
QUOTE(2 aliph 5 @ Feb 15 2008, 05:16 PM)
There will be further testing after 6 moths. Dont know how long will it take to complete successfull testing. You are looking at atleast another year !!
Well, yeah, might take a while. Still, the Klub is definitely a cool sub-launched missile with a 220 km range. I think China's Kilo Type 636 also has Klub.
One more thing bro, I just noticed your signature. You might wanna change that, since this is a public forum, and you could be arrested by the police for it. Just a little friendly advice.
QUOTE(pirateofthecarribean @ Feb 15 2008, 05:18 PM)
One more thing bro, I just noticed your signature. You might wanna change that, since this is a public forum, and you could be arrested by the police for it. Just a little friendly advice.
If they still havent arrested you yet then I am fine.
QUOTE(2 aliph 5 @ Feb 15 2008, 05:22 PM)
If they still havent arrested you yet then I am fine.
QUOTE(pirateofthecarribean @ Feb 16 2008, 08:24 AM)
You are back to your stunts again Pirate--we asked you not to bring in the flag like this!! Why the hell are you raising the flag for?????
This guy is kind of a retard - I feel sorry for him - probably wearing his mothers underwear & j*cking off at how he is irittating us !!!
Listen freak - that flag you keep mis-using is sacred - a low life like u has no right to use it. plus first your hindian, then ?Chinese/Canadian - then in some threads pretend to be Pakistani, either you have multi-personality disorder or trying to ruin threads.
PAKISTAN PAINDABAD
Listen freak - that flag you keep mis-using is sacred - a low life like u has no right to use it. plus first your hindian, then ?Chinese/Canadian - then in some threads pretend to be Pakistani, either you have multi-personality disorder or trying to ruin threads.
PAKISTAN PAINDABAD
QUOTE(Pak Raptor @ Feb 16 2008, 10:34 AM)
This guy is kind of a retard - I feel sorry for him - probably wearing his mothers underwear & j*cking off at how he is irittating us !!!
PAKISTAN PAINDABAD
PAKISTAN PAINDABAD
good comment bro.
this is a trik to know our capability nothing else.
note this one
India proposes NATO-style military alliance
but not invited pakistan though we are in asia and indian ocean region.
we should go for a nato like alliance with china, iran, burma, saudi arabia, bangladesh, nepal, bhutan, srilanka, malaysia, indonesia, uae, sudan, kenya, afghanistan. pakistan will lad that like usa in nato.
note this one
India proposes NATO-style military alliance
but not invited pakistan though we are in asia and indian ocean region.
we should go for a nato like alliance with china, iran, burma, saudi arabia, bangladesh, nepal, bhutan, srilanka, malaysia, indonesia, uae, sudan, kenya, afghanistan. pakistan will lad that like usa in nato.
There is no need for this sort of excercise--Indians can go and f* themselves!! Any Pakistani military leader even thinking of this proposal should be ashamed of himself!! In fact he CNS should come out and say "Thank you but u can go to hell"
I think there are gentlemens agreements in place.
Potentailly another nation could pass on that information, but that would mean alligning themselves with India.
The nations we etnd to game with are friendly to us.
Also it depends entirely on the nature of information documented. we tend to war game stuff like patrolling and secuirt rather than warefare, included parties tend to focus on those aspects rather than warfare capability, with india however they'd still be trying to suss us out and visa versa even if it was some non war related games.
While there are arguments related to it's military applications, however, I think India's offer might be due to the fact that many other Muslim countries might have excused themselves from joining or having a joint naval exercise due to the negative feelings of Pakistan.
Hence, the bait.
Potentailly another nation could pass on that information, but that would mean alligning themselves with India.
The nations we etnd to game with are friendly to us.
Also it depends entirely on the nature of information documented. we tend to war game stuff like patrolling and secuirt rather than warefare, included parties tend to focus on those aspects rather than warfare capability, with india however they'd still be trying to suss us out and visa versa even if it was some non war related games.
While there are arguments related to it's military applications, however, I think India's offer might be due to the fact that many other Muslim countries might have excused themselves from joining or having a joint naval exercise due to the negative feelings of Pakistan.
Hence, the bait.
QUOTE(major_major @ Feb 15 2008, 12:16 PM)
theres nothing wrong in this...we should always welcome avenues of dialogue and communications. other enemys do it wy shouldnt we?
Agreed. If anything such co-operation improves relations and reduces the chances of war, which is something definitely in Pakistan's interest.
Besides, most naval exercises, specially one like this, will only involve some small surface combatants, and testing communication with each other, maybe some basic maneuvers, which may be helpful in anti-smuggling operations.
It will not give any side any strategic information like details about sensors, countermeasure systems, or submarines. Those type of high-level exercises are only done by treaty-allies, like NATO countries do with each other, or like Pakistan might do with China.
This is a very good gesture on India's behalf, and I hope Pakistan accepts.
I agree with LM above. The prospect of a joint Indo-Pak exercise involving subs or aircraft carriers is laughable. Any joint exercise will involved joint parolling, anti-piracy, anti-smuggling mock operations and the like. So, the idea of 'stealing' information is a non-starter.
Any such exercise will be good PR, and help in normalising relations.
Any such exercise will be good PR, and help in normalising relations.
No we should not go for joint exercies with indian navy ...
one of the friends mention they can learn our Frigates,destroyers capabilities while exercising with other navies using same destroyes, Frigates that we use correct ! but the way our troops manavour is different from other navies of the world.....
one of the friends mention they can learn our Frigates,destroyers capabilities while exercising with other navies using same destroyes, Frigates that we use correct ! but the way our troops manavour is different from other navies of the world.....
QUOTE(sohailbarki @ Feb 29 2008, 12:16 PM)
No we should not go for joint exercies with indian navy ...
one of the friends mention they can learn our Frigates,destroyers capabilities while exercising with other navies using same destroyes, Frigates that we use correct ! but the way our troops manavour is different from other navies of the world.....
one of the friends mention they can learn our Frigates,destroyers capabilities while exercising with other navies using same destroyes, Frigates that we use correct ! but the way our troops manavour is different from other navies of the world.....
what are the currently operational destroyers and frigates of pakistan navy and india navy??
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