Well I believe that the PN would ultimately order a total of 6 U214s to form a AIP-SSK fleet of 9. However we heard the sporadic and sketchy reports about the PN pursuing a nuclear attack submarine. Well it might not be a major priority today, but may be one in the future - like after 2020. I wonder if it would be possible to score an agreement with France or Germany similar to one Brazil got...i.e. cooperation on the "non-nuclear" stuff. For instance use the DCN Barracuda as a baseline and change some of its design parameters for a Pakistani nuclear reactor and systems? Perhaps allow its design for VLS-tubes for a new Babur variant?

Oh little tidbit from PakDef on the PN deal:
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=40

or work with the chinese using the 093 template

actually the chiense have a priject for a mini nuclear sub (4500 ton) attack sub, for littoral operations
the benefits of nuclear subs are faster speed, deeper depths, and quieter (use of the pump jet design is only sustainable with the power only a nuclear reactor can provide for a sustained amount of time)

pumpjet nuke sub = 15 knots, AIP diesel sub = 7 knots in sustained cruise

Interesting tidbit. Considering some claim Babur to be a Tomahawk clone and Tomahawk can be launched from 'ordinary' tubes for 553mm heavyweight torpedoes.

That would suggest that Babur is not really a copy of Tomahawk...just shares a lot of conceptual similarities. Though I would not discount efforts to make Babur or a SLCM that could launch from 533mm torpedos...at least within MTCR there may be efforts in this with Turkey, Ukraine, etc.

Also the above might explain the seemingly high cost of the first 3 Type-214s - which is $1.9bn USD, if not higher.

ISI2003,

The mini SSN sounds interesting, any more information? If there is a Pakistani SSN project, I think the goal would be to procure the frame/template/hull from abroad or design it with extensive foreign assistance - like an enlarged Type-214? - and fit it with a local mini-reactor. Nonetheless any Pakistani SSN project would probably not gain fruition until the mid-2020s when the new SSKs - as Rafi suggests up to 6 Type-214s - are in service.
===================================

Seems the idea of Pakistan developing a nuclear submarine has been around since 1989!


http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/

From PakDef: http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=59

This is what i found a while back on a chinese forum relating to a 4500 ton mini nuclear submarine for littoral missions around china

http://img404.imageshack.us/my.php?image=c...ininusubro6.jpg

Could someone translate

Looks interesting...wish someone could translate...any idea on armaments, standard 6 torpedo tubes?

The biggest problem is getting someone to work with the PN on building a nuclear submarine. It seems most western nations think that Pakistan's nuclear weapons can fall into the hands of militants with ease. China has not fully perfected the nuclear submarine, but give it another decade and there should be a nuclear submarine project with China involved. France might be up for it, seeing how they're sending a $1B military aid package to Ghaddafi of all people. But it won't happen for another decade.

If PN is planning on an SSN, I'd expect cooperation to hit full swing at around 2015 - and proceed for 10 years before the first SSN enters service.

three nuclear submarine with babur and another ballistic missile with 4000 km are great. my name for pakistan navy nuclear submarines...

pns musharraf (tribute to a great leader)
pns akbar (grandson of babur)
pns khyber (great pass)

china is mass producing nuclear submarines and you r saying that htey sitll have to perfect their sub nuclear reactors...

Russia was mass-producing nuclear subs during the Cold War too. Were they perfect? Hell no! China's nuclear submarines are still far behind the US' and Russia's nuclear subs.

whats the criteria of assessing nuclear reactors in a sub? accidents , optimized powers or maintenance ???

How quiet is it? What systems does it use? What weapons are capatabile? Chinese technology isn't up there with the US, Russia, or EU yet. I've read USN accounts of how noisy Chinese nuclear subs are. For now, the PN should stick with diesel subs until either a) China makes a huge leap in producing nuclear submarines or b) Some EU nation with some experience comes and helps the PN.

What did USN encounter Chinese submarines...or what was China doing letting USN guys check out critical ships...or was USN talking about 1st or 2nd generation Chinese SSNs? In any case, PN won't be getting SSNs until the 2020s...there are other priorities...hell I don't think the next-gen SSK project will be complete - i.e. 6 submarines - until the early 2020s.

I agree--Chinese Sub Tech is pretty inferior at the moment. PN should be looking at the latest not taking risks with an inferior tech and I am pretty sure that PN also knows this.

Oh yeah, that incident with the Kitty Hawk. Well we all know who's getting more money now!

hull design; u214 inspired
reactor, 093 inspired

According to Rafi on PakDef, PAEC has been studying/researching miniature reactors for a while as there are those who believe that an underwater nuclear deterrant will eventually be acquired. Nonetheless PAEC would seek foreign assistance and technology in areas that it cannot develop...

Any idea how rafi came to know about it? I know brother WAS has relatives in PN and he has been very accurate with what he has said so far.

From the sounds of it...Rafi was either involved within PAEC or some deep government department, or has his sources.

PakDef is source haven...and he's been in the definite tone so far...not in the speculatative.

i am also a member of pakdef. his uncle's friend works there.

I think this Rafi guy has some very good links with Pakistani strategic organizations I think Pakistan nuclear command was the last to be set up will be the most powerful, I seen a recent report on ARY digital where the naval chief said that the new gen subs will be produced in Pakistan. Also said PN has the antidote for india plans to deploy nuclear weapons at sea.

From Pakdefers it appears they like Babur to be long range LACM maybe 1500-2000km range, this will enable us to shoe the turdians not to fu*k with us.

nobody is going to give you real help on nuclear subs, no matter what you might think. People speculated for the longest time that 093 got help from Rubin and that turned out to be complete junk. Until, you can design your own civilian reactor, I'm going to have a lot of doubts toward the safety of a military one.

with u214 tech the external stealthness of the sub design will be taken care of
the chinese are helping in the building of reactors for power plants, and with mini nuke subs in china (in the works) will lead to chinese deigning a reactor, which pakistan can copy (from designs)

That is true.

Without exceprtion, all naval nuke reactor design must pass the most stringent certification process and strenuous tests on land before it can be considered for adoption for installation aboard any vessel. A case in point is China's HTGR.

Who will be working on making the sub reactor if there is something going on in pakistan? will it be KRL or some other group. after the demise of Soviet union, thousands of state run scientists lost their jobs. couldnt pakistan give them like $100K a year and get their services to accelerate their SSBN program?? its not a violation of any international treaty ?

i remember going to GIKI university, we had a lot of russian professors who are still teaching there. i am sure govt of pakistan can employ scientists to do work for them.

look at how small U214 is and how large nuclear subs are, it's not going to work. And please don't make suggestions like just proportionally expand the hull, that's not going to work, there is so much that goes into designing a submarine.

there is no evidence that 093's reactor is HTGR and it doesn't look like 095's reactor is either. I was thinking about the website of the company that supposedly is working on 095's reactor vessel, doesn't seem to be linked with the HTGR program.


China already recruited a bunch of Russians. Besides, the Russian reactors are infamous for their unreliability.

I didn't say that HTGR has anything to do with any Chinese unclear fleet. I just used it as an example to illustrate the fact that unke reactor R&D is a long, expensive and arduous process even when it is done on land. And, a unit that works on land doesn't automatically implies that it will work (or can fit inside ) in a vessel.

BTW, two units of HTGRs are currently pumping out power commercially,...on land.

Obviously not just expanding the hull, but design aspects Such as the extenal non-magentic surface that will lower the acoustic signature

on the reactors, design aspects could be "shared" and that could work out some problems our program might have
the rest local engineers would work out

Collins was suppose to be a larger version of Gotland and we all heard about who long it took them to make it really good. Stuff like advanced Sig management, nobody is going to share that with you, unless you have top level clearance.

technology for export versions of french and german submarines was acquired by ToT, chinese technical assistance could be provided in nuclear sub design and from their over the next decade pakistani scientists work on building a sub

it migh tbe noisy at first, but over the years it could develop into something decent, and the capability is very valuable

also the chinese share alot of technology with pakistan, not their best but still decent stuff, and pakistan tweeks it to improve it as much as possible

That is the right approach for any country.
Normally weapon systems (and their transport platform) are divided into two large categories namely strategic and tactical; it so happens that nuke boat belongs to the former. As a rule governments are far more careful when dealing with technology transfer related to strategic equipments/weapons. An example is the British sea-base nuclear force. All their boats carry US made ICBM with US made warheads. Guess who has the final say (and the launch sequences) to fire those missiles.

A member on PakDef seems fairly sure that the PN will eventually have SSNs...based on what he said;

• PAEC has research on miniature/compact nuclear reactors dating to at least the early 1990s.
• No outsider will help Pakistan with the reactor.
• Top brass in the military believe that sea-based strategic assets will be vital in the future.
• Project is highly classified...but SSN would either be a light 4500-ton ship, or much larger traditional size vessel - PN will not do both.
• Attempts will probably be made to gain foreign assistance in producing a large enough hull.

The end result would mean that Pakistan's SSNs would likely start joining in the mid-2020s...

High chances of a SSGN in the class of French baracuda as far as dimensions go. VLS is something i am not too sure of but by then it might be a very good possibility.

On a side note...the Turkish next-generation SSK is slated to be based on Type-214...however they will use a variant of GENESIS, their own Tubitak-Vestel fuel-cell technology, own torpedo systems and the source claimed VLS-tubes. We don't know the timeframe of the project, but it will probably reach its momentum around 2015-2020...so it does sound reasonable to have submarine-based VLS. Do remember Turkey is advancing quite rapidly as well.

I think the Barracuda's dimensions are a good estimate...essentially 4500-5000 ton when surfaced. However we should not expect to induct SSNs before the current SSK project is finished. If we are looking to work with Turkey on customizing the Type-214, then we shouldn't expect to finish inducting these submarines - especially if we go for a total of 6 as Rafi suggested - before 2025. We're looking at some time spent on at least signing the deal...let alone time for technology transfer, integration and weapon-system development. Though at least in terms of VLS, cruise missiles, torpedos and internal sub-systems - we could be covered...leaving the SSN hull and reactor.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/248068/thre...2C+Turkish+navy

Pakistan acquires capability to develop N-sub


Hanif Khalid

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has acquired the capability of developing its own nuclear submarine. Pakistani scientists and the engineers have developed indigenous technology for building the nuclear submarines at the existing facilities. This capability will strengthen the naval defence of the country. President Gen Pervez Musharraf will discuss this matter with the Chinese President during his visit to Islamabad in November this year.

Pakistan started exploring alternative sources and strategies to bridge the wide gap with India in conventional and strategic weapons/forces to sustain its independence and sovereignty.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=2944

Remember this news a while back.

don't worry about noise with your first nuclear sub, lol. Worry about safety first. Think about what kind of system redundancy and how many layers of concrete are used for a new commercial reactor and what kind of material is used to separate the sailors from the reactors on a nuclear sub. The biggest concern should be preventing the sailors for all get sick from radiation.

As for ToT, there is ToT over certain things, but not every detail will and can be transferred. The Australians definitely had to develop their own sig management. As for Chinese, don't expect too much. That's all I can.