===================================

Date Posted: 20-Mar-2008
Jane's Defence Weekly
Pakistan continues hunt for interim frigates
Richard Scott Jane's Naval Consultant
London

Seems like the Request for Proposal for the Future FFG has been released, but the PN also wants 4-8 used FFGs to fill in the gap for 5-10 years.

Mark how many surface ships are we looking at in PN in total numbers especially the new one's what will be the complete stregth of PN especially in numbers. i know for sure we have 3 potent agosta 90B's and we will go for 3 to 4 U boats and in the long run lets say next 10 years we might see the total numbers of subs crossing 10 and perhaps 12.

As far as I can confirm, PN is looking for:

4 new-built frigates - for which it just released an RFP.
4 new-built corvettes - reportedly chose Turkish MILGEM
4 F-22P light frigates - first should be arriving late this year I believe...
4-8 used frigates - we did request 6 Oliver Hazard Perry Class FFGs from U.S., guess that failed too lol.
3-4 U214 SSK - last I heard, the deal was worth $1.9bn USD

I don't think our submarine or surface fleet will see major expansion over the next 10 years...we will probably stick with the above.

Hmmm interesting.

This could mean that the PN is getting anxious to replace the Type-21s as soon as possible.

Yeah, and probably acquire a platform to help lead our crew into the new frigates.

Very interesting indeed

Now forgive me, my knowledge in the navy fiels is pretty much almost non-existing but I would like suggest the Danish "Absalon" Class ships, as a new ship and not second hand.
The special thing about these Danish ships is that they are flexible. They can pretty quickly (2 hours worktime) change roles.

http://www.navalhistory.dk/English/TheShip...Class(2004).htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absalon-class...d_support_ships
Read more here, from 2004 though http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachmen...achmentid=45846

Again, the keyword is the flexibility, one day full scale war ship, 2 hours later full scale hospital ship.
And yes its a frigate.

What do you think?

With Salam and Regards /Shahid

Now that our fleet has teeth (babur cruise missile) and ur airforce can provide cover (F-16, JF-17, J-10) we can look to expand/upgrade the fleet.

A lot of our current fleet is of dinosaurs. The itineray suggested by Mark is reasonable to provide a minimum capability to defend our seas.

Pakistanis need to start developing their own firgates.

The indians navy is building some modern destroyers and frigates like Delhi class & banglore class as well as P17 frigates.

WHY CAN,T PAKISTAN DO THE SAME ???????/

We're on the path to it. The 90's wrecked our economy, we were never that well off in the first place.

We have manufactuers and modified missile boats, we are going to get the next generation of corvettes with ToT the same is true of the F22P and the agosta 90B, we are learning the trade, we wil get there soon.

KSEW is being expanded and upgraded...plus there are 2 new private shipyards being built in Gwadar and Port Qasim.

Shahid, it is likely that the top-3 competitors for PN's FFG will be from Germany, France and China.

Offcourse, but have you seen the Danish class? Normally we tend not to look at these products, but just with your (great ) analytical skills, how would you judge the "Absalon" class in PN?

2 new (private) shipyards? Nice, which ones?

I would deem Absalon as a command vessel that we should have once we establish a good frigate, corvette & submarine fleet IMO.

The 2 new shipyards have no names (as far as I know)...they'll just be built in Gwadar and Port Qasim. Likely the bulk of their orders will come from PN.

My question is: are there any 2nd hand, good quality ships available??

We don't have to. Our navy has been such a small priority. We have a small coast to defend. India on the other hand has a HUGE coastline to defend, its surrounded by sea on 3 sides. It has no choice but to invest heavily in its navy.

As for ship-building, India only builds its own hulls, all the equipment on-board comes from Russia or elsewhere. We have already built missile boats like that, and will soon build our first F-22P frigate. After that, we could definitely try our own design.

That is the problem...we have tried to get 2nd hand frigates wherever offered to either lose out or have deals fail. The latest we know is that PN requested 6 OHPs from the U.S., and the USN said in 2007 that the first ones won't be available before 2009. We may see some U.K Type-42s become available from 2009 as well, so we should wait and see how things pan out.

Regarding the new FFGs...the PN released an RFP to foreign shipyards; a while earlier India issued RFIs to foreign shipyards...am I missing something?

4-8 long hull OHP's with VLS at $100-150 Million (refurbished) a pop would be a steal for the PN, espically if equippped with ESSM and SM-1s

they could hold the line for at least a decade

I don't think PN will put much into 2nd hand FFGs...with OHP the PN will likely add RAM, use 2x4 Harpoon Block-II and retain the 2x3 torpedo tubes.

Secondly, I think the F-22P will see an early upgrade if RAM is made available for us...I wonder if it'd be possible to equip it with 2x3 torpedo tubes as well?

sm-1 is pretty much going out of service. equipping with ESSM would take quite the refit.

considetring that pakistan is looking at paying 120-150 million per ship (based on type 23 deal) wouldn't it be better to come up with an upgraded f-22p design, but add the new chinese vls from the 054A and add some of the tech from the 054A

used western frigates would probably be behind the current chinese frigates

also new ships would be built in pakistan (money stays in pakstan) and we get shis with 20 years life span for the same money as used ships with fewer years and high maintance costs (one f-22p common modular design means lower cost)
---------------------
the best we could get with the OHP is ASW capabilities (which is why up to 4 foriegn frigates for ASW should be procured)

other than that, SAM and ASuCM capabilites would be less than the 054A caobilities even scaled down
--------------
build a second ship building yard at port qasim (the new private yard), and increase pakistan's capacity to build ships with the money saved from building indigenously (build this up to the standards of at elast chinese ship yards so we can get contracts for building more ships like the chinese do)

Normally I would agree with that... whenever we get western ships, they have decades of use on them, and they strip them bare of all the good weapons and sensors, and then we have to buy additional systems to upgrade them ourselves. For the same price you can get a brand new Chinese warship with better systems.

But I think the reason the navy has asked for 4-8 SECOND-HAND ships is because they want them RIGHT NOW. They want 4-8 ships immediately. If we buy new ships instead, we will have to wait for 4 years till delivery is complete.

so 4 OHP (which have decent ASW capabilities) and 4 used AAW frigates like the Type 23 might be a good mix of used western frigates
if upgraded with modern Sensors, Missiles, and structural refurbishment, all 8 of these could all be purchased for about $1 Billion

a follow on to the F-22P could use knowledge learned from these ships (as the f-22P looks partially inspired by the type 21 frigates pakistan navy operates) such as VLS missiles and Fully capble ASw operations from SH-60's off the OHP frigates

the ships would aslo come with modern US and Uk naval training, and along with the trainig from the chinese navy, and our own experense the surface fleet would be upto date on the procedures/tactics of the world's navies

also in terms of ASW a purchase of u-214 woudl give invaluable german sub trainig, so ASW would be enhanced in that regard

Another option
so we have ships (in 2 years after ordering, due to upgrading)

we order 4 late 80's OHP ships and upgrade them like the australians did with their Adelaide class (which are 15 ears older then those OHP i propose PN buys, so we would have 15 more years of life in them)
the ships have a 8 cell vls (holding 32 ESSM) instead ahead of the single arms SM-2 launcher

the australians went for 4 ships at US$1.2 Billion ($300 Million each) fully loaded
with the missile and ASW and AAW capablies i have described (32 essm at 50km range and sm-2 with 120km range) we would have a formidable battle tested fleet

and we would have alot of new techbnolgy to learn from for our own developments

I think longer than 4 years...especially if you're dealing with the French FM400/FREMM...and that is for delivery to start.

along side a large purchase as four upgraded OHP, we could sign a deal to acquire 8 RAM systems for the 4 follow on class to the F-22P as well as the F-22P, giving them enchaced AAW capabilites, from the 8 cell VLS experience that could be a feature we try to get upgraded from the chinese on the f-22P and follow on classes

btw here are some more details of what i mean:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMAS_Sydney_%28FFG_03%29
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._1702120425.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_clas...ate#FFG_Upgrade

but it has potential short falls
http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0...ml?from=mostpop

Question: Do we really need modern stealth, poly coated, armoured fleet of expensive vessels that will be financed by mortgaging the future of our economy. No.
We just need a few Exocet/Barbour type missiles to turn our enemies gleaming fleet of brand new hi-tech navies into piles of scrap metal at the bottom of the Sea.

God Bless Pakistan.

Do you happen to work in the MoD's Research Division?

Well the PN's small size limits its options vis-a-vis the huge coastline.

but the main mission for the navy is defense... not to invade india lol.

We just need a fleet big enough to punch through an Indian blockade which might starve our trade. So our priority is still our own small coast-line.

But if we have a bigger fleet, then in times of war, we can consider blockading India's energy routes form the middle east... but attacking India's huge coast-line was never on the table.

India on the other hand needs to be able to defend its massive coast line from Pakistan, China, and who knows, maybe America some day... which is why they need a navy 10 times bigger than Pakistan.

Honestly I don't think India would be in a position to rip through the PN as dreamt by their analysts...never have two powers of similar conceptual capability and standards have taken each other on in the present-era. U.S. might have trampled over Iraq and Afghanistan, but its feet are still bleeding and the pricks keep popping. IMO the PN is pushing for a relatively low numerical difference with India...i.e. a relatively bigger PN is on the cards of planners in contrast to our coastlines...and PN's advances have been exponential. From a defaulted F-22P purchase we are now talking Hawkeye-2000s, P-3Cs, ESSMs...all we miss is a solid surface-combatant based ASW fleet. The next phase will involve MILGEM, Future-FFG, U214, etc.

It is clear that the PN is aiming to cut India off from its Western trade routes...don't be surprised if there is an ulterior motive in the CTF-150, the increased Arab-Pakistan naval cooperation, the similar weapon-systems with UAE & Oman, the warming up to Sri Lanka, etc.

Our naval brass has discarded the old “small defensive fleet” quite a while back. As you can see even with the stop gap measures coming in the future PN will be a great deal larger. There were a few things that led to the decision. Firstly India’s large Naval build up. Pakistan in an event of a war would face India’s western fleet and to have our total combined force outnumbered by just one of their naval commands would be a disaster and in such a scenario would allow them to take up residence in vital waters to us where we should have strategic depth so endangering our shipping routes, it’s around 420nm across and 200nm from our coastline the area I talk of. You will then have our fleet pulling back further to our coastline due to their superior numbers and there goes room for manoeuvring as we will have our major ports right at our back. Anything short of a full stand would just relinquish control of our coastline to them or at the very least allow them to bombard it with ease.

The next point is the rapid expansion of our Naval assets we already have Karachi, Gwader, Jiwani, Ormara and Qasim. We are soon to embark on massive expansion at Pasni which at this point in time has shared air facilities and hangers for PN aviation. On top of this we have the planned four further ports one of which we know of will be built at Sonmiani which is famously known to be linked to SUPARCO. The whole point of the expansion is to increase our strategic depth and not have the worry of being besieged or having our forces concentrated in one area. Now a small force couldn’t possibly cover all of what I have talked about. Also you have the future exploration and deep sea drilling of our territorial waters for resources which adds to the need for a larger fleet. You have the ongoing annoyance of foreign trawlers that are wreaking havoc upon our fish stocks by coming in as close as 13nm when our fishermen are only allowed to go 12nm from the coast!

The Navy envisages three separate fleets which will have over 30 surface vessels of varying displacements that I have gone into in the past. That will include ships at the 6000 ton mark.

If I'm right...the 30 surface vessels are - according to you & Rafi on PakDef;

12 MILGEM?
8 Future-FFG in 4000-5500 ton?
4 FFG/DDG in 6000 ton?
6 auxiliary & support ships?

Yes that is about right but I have heard more than 30 so you could be looking at half dozen more which will probably be light frigates. Also the largest ships are set to increase to six but that is just a rumour which I will have to confirm once I get more news.

Mark, until we receive the OHP or F-22Ps, I don't see how the PN and IN can be considered to be of equal capability. Our small submarine force and missile boats can mount a tight defence of our coast. But the type-21s just seem to be big targets, not really offering PN a serious offensive force. Once we start taking some deliveries, yes, things will change. Even a 10-frigate fleet, with the OHP's ASW suite would be a serious navy that India could not push around. But until then we seem to be quite out-numbered and out-gunned.

Waz, when you talk about this plan, what time frame are you considering? Wouldn't going from 6 ships to 30 take like 20 years? Sure having a massive fleet is awesome, but we might as well dream of cruisers and carriers while we're at it. Looking at financial and time constraints, isn't our strategy for the next 5-10 years going to remain "just be strong enough to defend our small coastline" ?

Not to mention fast attack boats, and missle boats with both AAW and Anti shiping capability on their own and expension of our SUB fleet oh yeah! now we are talking baby Muahahha i feel so evil and proud lol, by the way wish a decade from now we consider a small size carrier as well.

wtf you changed your avatar to the "like I care" expression

Yes I was referring to the future...like 2015 fleet with OHPs & F-22Ps. The plan waz is talking about is more like 2030.

The time frame for the first phase is set to be complete by 2020 and the next phase by 2025-2030. So that is quite a while yet and the budget has already been marked for it. Our strategy will be to be strong enough to deter attack and to build our fleet in conjunction with the parameters I laid out above.

As for carrier there is no need for them and nor has anyone spoke about it in the Navy due to obvious reasons i.e. power projection is not an issue for us, the Indian mainland is not from us, cost, maintenance issues etc.

Not going to ever happen bro due to the reasons I outlined above. There is simply no need for it. We are better off using the funds to enhance our domestic ship building industry and other issues.

Bro we had a rather heated discussion on SSN plans and you had said there are no plans. Rafi on PakDef has recently hinted this is very much on cards. What are your source's take on this? Has there been any disclosures on this front lately or you havent heard anything like this so far? Would appreciate you clearing this up.

BoB,
I would agree with waz on carrier. I think PN should go the nuclear sub route rather than heavy on surface presence.

Although my knowledge of navy is limited i must say isnt there a small chance of a small tiny winy carrier with lets say to support 8 Rafale M's WAZ mera dil maat toor yaar

I think PN should be focusing on LPD and amphibious landing related ships soon for use by the Marines & NSSG.

cant we even ask china to make a tiny winy carrier to support 6 Rafale M which is cheap, easy to maintain and wont cost us much i mean we can do it NO CARRIER makes me want to cry OOOWAAAANNNNNNNN

I think China should develop a SVTOL stealth aircraft like F-35...and develop an LHD that could be used to support like 12 such fighters as well as Marines, armor and other expeditionary elements. Such a vessel (or 2) in the Pakistan Navy would give it massive power projection as well as settle requirements for multiple elements...as opposed to procuring an A/C carrier, LPDs, etc.

In any case...look at the modernization in phases.

1) Establishing a foothold by 2015
2) Expanding the fleet by 2025-2030
3) Extending to power-projection by 2030-2040? - SSNs, LPDs, etc.

LOL you sure know how to make me happy but on a serious note i dont think Chinese would be making a VSTOL any time soon, although i personally believe over a decade or so we might see PN going towards a small carrier owing to the fact we have a decent economy to support such a purchase and then chinese are making serious efforts to make dedicated carriers i think over the years they would come up with a cheap solution they always do and i think they wont let me down this time as well.

Then again didnt italy make a small size carrier we could do the same with the help of chinese over time i mean the power projection and the power a carrier gives you is mind blowing if its deployed properly in realistic terms having one would create hell for the indians.

The only realistic carriers PN could procure by 2030 would be European ones for F-35B/C...OR...something with China for some naval JF-17. Obviously with the JF-17 they would need to strengthen the structure for carrier take-off and landing...maybe even use 2 engines.

Either IMO would be a pain and waste...there is no need.

I respect your opinion and by all means you know more then me on this front but Mark why would having a carrier be waste of money and resources i dont understand why people come up with that reason be cause we have a small coast line ? is that it why dont we ever think about taking the battle to the enemy why wait for them to come to us.

Normally carriers are used to defend larger coastlines and to project power to multiple regions. Unless PN gains total jurisdiction over the Arabian Sea and decides to take part in expeditionary missions abroad, there is no need for an aircraft carrier. Personally speaking I would like to see one with 18 fighters and 6-12 helicopters...develop a JF-17 CV with 2 engines, twin-tail, etc...but that is just me and not reality lol.

lol yeah, I know it makes us sad BoB, carriers look very cool, they are the ultimate capital ship. But it just doesn't make sense.

1) First of all a carrier, even a small one, would be very expensive to acquire and then just operate. If you think even a small carrier is a good fit with Pakistan's economy, I strongly disagree.

2) Second, it will be very difficult to defend a carrier, given the size and capability of our navy. It will basically be one big target, and if the enemy manages to take it out, can you imagine the demoralizing effect that will have (I think India is setting itself up for such an embarrassment). There's a reason why China still doesn't have one, and probably not for another 5 years. They can certainly afford it, but they are smarter than that.

3) Lastly, its not going to help us much. A carrier is very useful if you are a great naval power, going around threatening other countries far away. But if your enemy is RIGHT NEXT to you, it makes absolutely no sense to have a carrier.

haha Mark, u noticed
I have a bunch of them... I'll be switching them from time to time Don't ask me how I get all these pictures

I must be a really picky person...but her lips are too full and she is the kind of person who would "like I care!" you a lot.

I wish she was that fiesty! But she seems very professional and serious when she does the newscast. The pictures don't do her justice... have a look http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7NOeWhRPiQ

OMG I just had a really hopeless idea... if you look at the latest pics of the F-22P, all the weapons are already installed and under a green cover... the main gun, the CIWS and the C-802 missiles... BUT the HQ-7 is missing... could it be... that a VLS has been installed in its place??!?! 1% chance! cmon cmon!

She looks sexy in black--has a nice sexy upper and not a bad voice either!