Word from pshamim on PakDef;

1) First F-22P - PNS Zulfiqar - will replace Type-21 PNS Babar; all F-22Ps will replace 4 Type-21s.

2) PN will request 6 OHPs from U.S - remaining Type-21s will be replaced.

3) PN will request for Mk-41 with ESSM & Mk.32 with Mk.46 for OHPs.

4) F-22P & OHPs will be considered a stop-gaps until new-generation frigates & corvettes arrive.

5) Type-054A & European frigates will be competing for FFG-requirement for 4 ships.

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?...p;postcount=171

Thanks Lord now PN is getting some new toys F22/Milgem/Hawkeye/PC3/Z9c
Mark any news of U214 or marlin any concrete evidence of which one is selected ???
and when it comes to FFG PN will most likely opt for either germans or french>>>whats ur perspective

U214 was selected...but PN may not sign the deal until it can give Senate & Parliament confidence in the contract.

As for future FFG...I honestly do not know. I could sit all day and make guesses...even I four years ago never thought PN would do this much!

Apparently PN has a requirement for 8 new-generation frigates...I think the first 4 will be Type-054As produced in China OR MEKO-Delta from Germany. The former for reliability & good cost:performance reasons, the later for commonality with the American-systems we already have in the pipeline. The next 4 I think PN would procure TF-2000 with the intention of building them at home. These are designed to be AAW frigates and draw from MILGEM...given PN is likely to order MILGEM, I think it would be logical to extend Pakistani shipbuilding to TF-2000. This order will likely come into fruition in the 2020s, so I think by then PN will have the flexibility and capability of integrating whatever it wants on its ships.

ESSM on OHP? That totally defeats purpose of having it as a stop gap measure. The amount of effort required to do that is not trivial. Consider this, even the Taiwanese haven't upgraded their OHPs.

Suggests that it will be a stopgap for a while. Thus far only the Australians upgraded their OHPs with Mk.41 & ESSM.

ESSM has the ability to be "quad-packed" in the Mk 41 VLS system. The first country to achieve operational status for ESSM after the United States was Australia. Other countries which also integrated the ESSM are The Netherlands, Germany and Norway. Other countries in the process of integrating ESSM are Canada, New Zealand, Denmark, Greece, Japan, Spain and Turkey. But after an expense like that the "stop gap" measure does seem far fetched. PN doesnt have a budget like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_class_frigate

Would depend on how much the govt will be able (or willing to) allocate for the upgrade...and what of just 2-3 units receiving ESSM?

Corvettes(Milgem or else), U-214s(1 billion +) , F-22Ps(750 miln) , P-3 Hawkeye 2000s(855mil) , Type-54A (will touch 900 or billion mark) HQ-16 VLS(European surface combatant i dont think so) and then these OHPs. Do the math. Why do i say less interest in European platforms because PN definitely will be keeping an eye on prevalent and coming Chinese supersonic anti shipping and there Chinese will have a weird smirk ah geta da Phity 54 A class and we will add the missile on eet. You dont become one of the top world military suppliers by being good all the time.

And also keep in mind. Mushy aint in charge anymore. There is a civillian government to keep track of all these above deals.

Do we know how much would be allocated to PN's acquisitions under current plan though? For PAF we got an idea of $12-15bn...we did not get concrete numbers for the PN, and it could be as much for all we know. Plus they have not suggested that MILGEM & Type-054A (future frigate) would be part of the 2019 modernization plan - new corvettes & frigates could come later than we think. Even the U214 deal isn't expected to come into physical fruition for a good while - the first U214 could enter sea-trials as late as 2015.

Regarding Chinese developments...couldn't PN wait until the 2010s when the Chinese would field better developments of their Type-054A-series? I don't think the PN will be particularly vocal about the new FFG requirement until it settles the OHP & Type-214 issues. I also don't think PN will receive/set into sea-trials the first of the new frigate before 2015...by that time the TF-2000 concept would also be known. If the Turks decide to design it themselves like MILGEM, then their hull would be pretty attractive given that KSEW would also absorb Turkish shipbuilding technology for MILGEM production. You can count the same argument in favour for Chinese FFGs with regards to F-22P, though note that KSEW would build more MILGEM than F-22P.

They definitely are not in a position to have submerged babur launching platform untill they get U-214s. Agosta-90Bs?
well surprise me......

Remember?
The BrahMos is being configured for Russia's Amur class submarines that are likely to compete for second-line of submarine construction at Mumbai's Mazgaon Docks parallel to the French Scorpene line.
http://www.dawn.com/2007/01/30/top13.htm

Well who said we'll be testing SLCMs 'so soon'...all 3 U214s are to be built in Pakistan. Do remember it took South Korea 6-7 years before their industry could roll out the first U214 - and they're reporting issues with their build. I would be darn surprised if KSEW could pop out a U214 in less time without any concerning issues...we're talking South Korea, major Far East Tiger shipbuilding country. Even if KSEW is aiming for that quality, it will still take time to actually achieve it before it can confidently take on U214.

Regarding SLCM Babur...well two possibility.

1) First Pakistani SLCM may not be Babur...might be a shorter range cruise missile or technology demonstrator that could fit on Agosta-90B. We thought there would be an air launched Babur, but PAF used Ra'ad instead. The PN Chief himself said it would be a while before strategic weapons of such nature equip the Navy - and this was in reference to Babur.

Though a Pakistani equivalent to Brahmos - i.e. shorter range, smaller diameter and very high speed (than Babur)....perhaps dual-use as AShM and LACM? Not the nature of Babur, but I think a lot more likely in the shorter time frame to 'show off'...besides it would be an interesting long-term investment to begin producing our AShMs locally.

2) SLCM Babur would come with the U214s...and might be pretty late...and would encompass a longer-range 2nd-strike doctrine.

Not the best of weather today in Shanghai:

wow, thanks alot for the pics Marchpole. cant wait to see this beauty in Pakistani waters.

COool :D

Mouthwatering stuff brother!! :)

The launching ceremony of the 1st F22-P and the keel laying ceremony of the 2nd F22-P will be held together Monday 7 April 2008 at Hudong Shipyard in Shanghai.


Admiral Muhammad Afzal Tahir, Chief of the Naval Staff of Pakistan, and Admiral Wu Shengli, Commander-in-chief of the PLAN, inspecting the guard of honour in Beijing on 3/04/08

Wow great pictures Marchpole that looks awesome all it needs is the Z9C anti-sub chopper on teh back then it will look great in the Arabian gulf.

Btw the 4 F22Ps are from a generous loan from China PN has no $$$ to buy this sized item we are still recovering from the Agusta 90B of which we made only 3! In the end the 4 F22Ps as usual will probably be written off cus we wont be able to pay $800 for a long time to come.

Thanks for the updates Mark! I think the OHP with ESSM is going to be quite a capable air defence system for PN, which might explain the heavy investment. It could be a longer lasting stop-gap as you said.

Though I must admit, the OHP is one ugly ship... not to mention the hulls will be old... I'm not too excited about the deal.

Wow marchpole, F-22P Looking good!

Looks stealthier than I expected... but no weapons installed yet, they will roughen the profile

Awwww, I want one of those phased array radars like on the type 054A

Hey how come both the Admirals have the same uniform

Londo Molari whose picture is that in your avatar? Who is this girl? Is that you!

That is the gorgeous Sana Tariq from GEO! Bro you should seriously watch GEO’s shows they have sure do have beautiful woman presenting them.

LMAO she has a fanclub

http://www.pakstop.com/pmforums/showthread.php?t=58748

She has one on every Pakistani site! She is very popular and knows it!

Yes thats me

Abb itni khas bhi nahi hain ALLAH ka sukar hai there are much much prettier woman in Pakistan then this geo appa/bhen jee which i think is just a average looking lady/aunty.

Sorry I dont watch Geo for long time, but from now on i shall definatly start watching Geo TV then! Thanks.

Thats halaroius!

Hey guys can some one plz tell me what will happen to the Lynx HAS.3s used by the Pakistan Navy when the Type 21s are gone ?????

the lynx helos are already mothballed....they won't be returning to service anytime soon.

regards.

Totally offtopic here:

Shouldn't the name spelt Thana and not Sana? If you write it in urdu script (arabic script) it begins with a the letter 'th', a boat with 3 dots on top. But I guess th in the beginning of the word wouldn't be normally said that way so you got to live with an s.
Sorry, just trying to learn some urdu these days.

Why's that?

Any OHP to be had from the US will likely no longer have a Mk13 single arm launcher and no SM-1 and no Harpoon. So, an refit is likely. The simplest option would be to park a 21 round RAM launcher atop where the Mk13 used to be, with 2x2 or 2x4 Harpoon deckmounted between bridge and RAM launcher. Alternatively, there could be a single 8 cell Mk41 VLU mounted forward of where the Mk13 used to be for 32 ESSM (with some modifications she could guide up to 3 simultenaously), with said 2x2 or 2x4 Harpoon. An even more elaborate refit would combine the first and second option.

Since the ships no longer have the STIR mounted in the rear, any refit with ESSM would required purchase and installad of STIR as well as modification of the MW-25 'egg' as well. Imho the RAM/Harpoon option is most likely one (cost effective, requiring very little structural modification, few additional electronics).

It is possible that at least a couple of the OHPs would receive ESSM to give PN medium-range air defence capability.

Anything is possible with sufficient budget

Yeah, the OHPs as they are now are in a pretty sorry state... purely ASW. If it comes with nothing but RAM for air-defense, it better be hella cheap.


Most people would pronounce "thana" as "tana", so sana is better. In English "s" is closer to the "say with the three dots", and should be used instead of "th". Some people use "th", like hadith instead of hadees, but I think it is because they are not well-versed in English. Using "th" sounds like the person is writing with a heavy lisp.

didn't look into the Australian refit, but CAS/STIR can be used to guide ESSM? That sounds a little on the strange side, considering how the engagement is done with normal ESSM equipped ships.

Of course, that's what it is for! Whats so different between a OHP with MK41/ESSM using its STIR from, say, a Canadian Halifax class or a Dutch Doorman class doing the same (if using a different launcher)? Not quite sure what you are getting at in terms of 'normal ESSM equipped ships'.

As in, you know DDG-51, Kongo, F-100 and the other Aegis ships, which relies on mid-course updates by SPY-1D with terminal illumination by SPG-62. Having 1 STIR really does seem to limit the concurrent engagement capability of ESSM.

Londo Molari sahab you're wrong on that one. People don't use 'th' in place of 's' 'because they're not well-versed in english', they use it where it ought to be used. For example you can't pronounce 'smooth' 'smoos', unless you're a german or french, but then we're talking english phonetics. The 'boat with 3 dots' HAS the 'th' sound you get except at the beginning of words.

Sorry for digressing guys.

Just saw a news on TV that "Turkish built frigate Karar will be inducted into Pakistan Navy on friday" any more information on this?Is it Milgem or what???

This comes as a big surprise to me:D

Would hardly compare OHP with AEGIS ships. But ESSM has always been intended for such ships as Dutch Doorman class and canadian Halifax class etc i.e. non-AEGIS ships.

Nobody says a single Stir is great (though the ones with the 2.4m dish reach out to 145km if necessary), besides, for closer in work, the WM25 can also pick up guidance (does so in the Australian OHP upgrade).

Probably they refer to a missile boat, not a frigate.

If its a missile boat then damn the person who wrote a frigate in the news ticker, but the strange thing is it was quoting the navy, it would take some "great journalism" to mess it up big time like this.

I think it's MRTP-33, PNS-Zarrar

BTW...the Turks will fit Mk.41 VLS on their OHPs:


http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2008/Turkey_08-40.pdf

Would also mean that the GENESIS suite would be compatible with the Mk.41 & ESSM. system.

Yes that is right Mark, one of two being inducted.

Wow, Pakistani journalism at it again, not only did they turn a missile boat into a frigate but also re-named it into PNS Karar, My God when will they learn!

I think they combined the news about the F-22P frigate which was just a few days ago, with the Turkish boat. You can't blame them, so many new things happening at the same time!

The word "smooth" is a great example. The "th" sounds like it does in "the" "there" and "them". So if you write down "thana" it will be pronounced like "dana" which is a grain or a zit on a person's face

my problem with it is that CAS/STIR guide the missile the entire way, so that means only a couple of missiles can be in the air engaging targets at the same time.

I see your point. A few thoughts on that:
ESSM has about the same range as the SM1 that the OHPs originally came with. These ships never had an ability to have several missiles in the air to begin with. The starting point for PN is that just 3 of ts 6 major surface combattants have a SAM system, which - afaik - can only have 1 LY 90 missile in the air at any time (and have just 5 ready rounds). So, OHPs with 32 much longer ranged ESSMs would represent a marked improvement even if they couldn't engage multiple tracks simultaneously - but I think the upgraded Aussie vessels can engage up to 3 tracks simultaneously. Even if there is more to be had from ESSM.

By the way, US CVNs will adopt ESSM as well - certainly not AEGIS ships.