whats the impact on pakistan maritime and security environment if india acquires Boeing P8I from US.. india is negotiating 20 P8I aircrafts....

You might want to repost this in the naval forum. The P-8I will be the biggest threat to the PN's undersea fleet esp. the U-214s.

Excuse me but isn't this thing still in the so called 'Critical Design Stage"???

It will be a fair while before the IN would have P-8I in full operational service...

The order might take place by 2010, but the completion of delivery may not take place before 2020. I wonder the age on the P-3Cs the PN has as well, and I imagine they too may need to be replaced sometime from at least 2025-2030, if not earlier. Honestly I wouldn't care what the Indian impact will be, but rather of Pakistan working on a succcessor to the P-3C and P-3 Hawkeye-2000.

Personally I can project a joint-systems-platform in the future which would be part of our local AWACS (produced in venture with China); R1-Sentinel/JSTARS-equivalent aircraft; MRTT (aerial refueler); and ultimately maritime patrol, reconnaissance, ASW/AShW aircraft. We just need a good new platform...I would recommend investing in such an aircraft now and project to begin producing it from 2020 - or whenever we will need it - ...not only for military, but also civilian use. A start would be to set up a R&D bureau for this purpose; open up JWG/JVs in certain areas with Embraer, Airbus or Boeing; enter an engine-development program with Chinese and/or Ukrainian companies; and bring it all together locally - i.e. design, integration, testing, etc. Get the aircraft into serial production from 2025-2030 at the latest IMO.

Boeing was awarded a $3.89 billion contract for the system development and demonstration (SDD) phase of the program on June 14, 2004. In November 2005 the Navy announced that the P8A preliminary design review (PDR) conducted Oct. 31 through Nov. 4 was the best major weapons system PDR it had ever reviewed. A successful critical design review was completed in July 2007.
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/milita...8A_overview.pdf

ST. LOUIS, April 3 (UPI) -- Boeing has started final assembly on its first P-8A Poseidon anti-submarine aircraft for the U.S. Navy. In all, the U.S. Navy wants to buy 108 P-8As to succeed its current aging force of P-3C aircraft by 2013.
http://www.upi.com/International_Security/..._assembly/6328/

The U.S. Navy placed an order for five MMA aircraft on July 8, 2004. The first flight test aircraft is scheduled for delivery in 2009.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-8_Poseidon

The program is a year ahead (!) of schedule.

Very unlike india!!!!!

But i happy these mean machines are to enter into IN as soon as possible.

Its the American P-8A program that's ahead of schedule. No idea about P-8I.

I think Indian Navy needs to worry about the 10 PN P3Cs, before anyone talks about the still-in-negotiation-and-development P8I.

You make developing a solid transport platform sound so easy. Pakistan needs to start from grounds up. Meaning, become suppliers to the major airliners, develop small transports (in Y-12/Y-7) class, before it can move on to developing medium and finally large transports. And then, the engine program will take even longer. You have to first start co-producing your own engines and then you can slowly develop jet engines and finally move onto large-bypass engines/gas turbines.

The first contract is for 8 aircraft. Reports say that India may buy another twelve.


It will be a fair while before the IN would have P-8I in full operational service...



The first delivery will take place in 2012 and all eight are expected to be delivered by 2015.


BTW. Can someone tell me when the first U-214 will be delivered to the PN.

The IN's primary arm is the surface fleet that'll be protected by carrier borne aircraft. The Orion's can't operate very far from the coast without being a target for the IAF's maritime Su-30MKIs and the IN's Sea Harriers. Without tankers, PAF escorts will find it hard to sustain operations at extended ranges.

Which is why we are adding tankers in the next two years.

Four tankers I believe. Assuming there's a ground and air war proceeding as well as a clash of navies, one would assume that they'd be in bigger demand elsewhere. And again operating off coast they become a target in addition to the Orions.

Pakistan Navy should be going for EMB-145 MP, also go by the designation as P-99. This is an armed maritime patrol aircraft which has Raytheon sensors and is quite a capable aircraft which can compliment Orions. The EMB-145 has a different version as well, which uses Swedish sensors and is under the designation EMB-145 SA/RS. Its a new generation maritime reconaisance & patrol aircraft which offers alot more service life than the refurbished Orions.

The first U214 isn't expected until after 2015.

As for P-8I, we will have to wait and see, given the recent production status I could see them being delivered to IN by 2015. Though it is worth noting that PN hasn't exactly spent any money on the P-3Cs as they are coming through U.S. funds...so there is a chance by 2020 the PN will be searching for a replacement for P-3.

Dizasta,

The EMB-145 MP is unarmed...i.e. it cannot carry torpedos and AShMs like the P-3s. Though in the future with PN having a larger and far more advanced fleet - i.e. corvettes & frigates with ASW, as well as fighter fleet - an unarmed MPA might be considered. However personally I expect the PN to continue with armed versions to ensure maximum-possible capability.

Did you consider the A319 MPA (originally proposed to India) as a possible P-3 replacement?

Plus the Sino-Pak AWACS might be ready for active tests, so PAF might consider A319/320 as a potential platform for the AWACS.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2006/...-doors-for.html

The P-99 is the maritime patrol version of the R-99. It shares much of the same sensor suite as the R-99B, but most visibly, lacks the multi-spectral scanner and the side-looking radar. It retains many of the C3I and ELINT capabilities of the R-99B. The P-99 also carries four under-wing hard points, which can be mounted with a variety of torpedoes and/or anti-ship missiles. Mexico was the launch customer for this variant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embraer_R-99

Check it out at Embrear:

So according to you the Indian Navy will get their first plane ahead of the US fleet induction of 2013?

the U.S. Navy wants to buy 108 P-8As to succeed its current aging force of P-3C aircraft by 2013.
The U.S. Navy placed an order for five MMA aircraft on July 8, 2004. The first flight test aircraft is scheduled for delivery in 2009.

Hi penguin that looks like what is stated on wikipedia, but it also says this

for delivery in 2009. The first aircraft will be a test aircraft, and will be converted to production standards at a later date

Here


The Preliminary Design Review (PDR) was successfully completed in November 2005. Critical design review was completed in July 2007. Boeing began production of the first of five test aircraft in December 2007. The first flight of the P-8A is due in March 2009.

Full-scale production at a rate of 12 to 18 aircraft a year is planned to commence in 2012. The planned Initial Operational Capability (IOC) date is 2013.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/mma/


Full scale production will commence in 2012 so how will India receive them by then? Operational capability which is a true test of its mettle will commence at 2013 for the US navy.

wot does the US order has to do with the Indian order? huh?

Boeing is the manufacturer and both US and India are the customers.Ofcourse the first aircraft will be delivered to US and the laters one after one untill 2015 fly to India.

The P8i will have a bigger RCS as compared to P3s.P3s won't be the only target.

Well actually by the time the P8is enter service the PN will probably be fielding the Chinese 054 ships. The 054s air defence missiles can engage aircrafts upto a 300km radius. I read on sino defence that China is making changes to the ship and plans future versions with a full fledged improved anti-ship capablity, and the article stated that Pakistan has shown interest in the ship but was concerned that at the moment the ship is only primarily an air defence vessal, the new changes will make the ship a better option compared to Pakistan's western options. The new version will have full air defence and anti ship capability and will be aggresively marketed to Pakistan.

Its my understanding that basically by 2015-2020 Pakistan would have restored the the balance of power. Both countries would be fielding some of the most advanced and expensive weapons but they would be only there as a deterent because both country's aquisitions would be cancelling each other's out.

The PAF aircrafts don't really have the range to run patrols over high seas though the threat from the PAF is always there.



300kms is very unlikely. Firstly, tracking at those ranges can only be done by airborne patrol aircraft(though even then it seems unlikely). And secondly, I don't know of any Chinese ship launched SAM with that range. The SM-2(as a part of the Aegis system) has a range of about a 100kms plus.

You are comparing your future P8is with our present fleet.We will have goodies for you when you induct those.Even US navy has not inducted the P8is.

There were 2 quotes, one of which was from wikipedia as indicated, the other not.

How do you know this? Is there a source for this information that you could provide, I'ld be interested in reading more.


That's overstating the 054s missile range by something like a factor of 10.

The Indian P8is are equal to the Pakistani P-3C due to Indian inferiority in training.

Shabi1, 300km radius! they'd need a future version of s-400 for that. Get s little serious man

To penguin,

because p8i is based on boeing 737.A big commercial jet.

I would like to correct myself, the 052 frigate (not the 054) from China carries the HQ-9A SAM system it can scan targets upto 300km and the range of its missiles is 120km. The HQ-9 is considered to be based on the S-300P and Patriot. The 052 is an air defence ship and the 054 is a stealth ship. China is trying to improve upon both ships.

BS. Indian P-8Is are only inferior because they are not here yet. Well let us see how long the Indian bureaucracy & politics takes to finalize the deal...I personally doubt IN will have all P-8Is by 2015. IMO 2019 is a reasonable figure - and that is not including the standard 5-10 years it takes India to start and finish a tender - for IN; though even then the P-8Is would be very formidable in the regional scenario. IN is building up a comprehensive ASW network involving P-28s, Scorpene and follow-on class of SSKs...likely India will have an equivalent to Link-16 & 22 by then IMO.

Though that is not to say Pakistan will be lacking. The P-3C Orion will work alongside the Hawkeye-2000, MILGEM corvette and Agosta-90B & Future-SSK (U214) - probably under Link-16. Though the P-3 we're getting already have a fair number of hours logged onto them, but despite this it is a formidable system in own right. Though the Orion-C can sustain service usage for only so long...IMO from 2015-2020 PN may seek a replacement for its P-3Cs. I guess the EADS Airbus A319/320 MPA could be one of the options...

Yep... although the 052 is not a frigate, its a 6,500 tonne destroyer designed for area-wide air-defence. It is designed to be used as part of a fleet, where it will provide protection for everyone using long-range missiles.

The 054 on the other hand is a 4,000 tonne frigate, designed to operate alone. Its mission is to hunt for submarines, and it has a medium-range HQ-16, to protect itself from aerial threats.

Both have similar stealth features, but the destroyer is much more expensive than the frigate.

I'm not comparing the P-8's with anything. Until its specs are released, one can only speculate. Its a replacement to the P-3C and the developers say its a generation ahead of the Orion. The IN will ofcourse receive them atleast two years after the USN does.

Another very interesting aircraft which the PAF, PN and PA can utilize very effectively and can form the triad for ISR platforms. Its the EMB-145 AGS for battlefield monitoring and border control.

And that is why when I asked above that the plane may still be in a critical design stage, I was surprised to see some indians claiming that they will receive their planes by 2012!!! What a load of Bullocks!!!

The USN wants more than 100 of these--so the indians won't be getting any of these until roughly around 2020!!! I am pretty sure PN will acquire something else by then!!

And the P3 was what, a minute tweety bird?

P3
Length: 116 ft 10 in (35.6 m)
Wingspan: 99 ft 8 in (30.4 m)
Height: 33 ft 8.5 in (10.3 m)

P8
Length: 126 ft 6 in (39.47 m)
Wingspan: 117 ft 6 in (35.72 m)
Height: 42 ft 1 in (12.83 m)

Not a whole lot bigger. Here's some more comparison materials:

CN-235-100 MP
Length: 70 ft 3 in (21.40 m)
Wingspan: 84 ft 8 in (25.81 m )
Height: 26 ft 10 in (8.18 m)

Breguet Br.1150 Atlantic
Length: 104 ft 2 in (31.75 m)
Wingspan: 119 ft 1 in (36.3 m)
Height: 37 ft 2 in (11.33 m)

Nimrod
Length: 126 ft 9 in (38.6 m)
Wingspan: 127 ft (38.71 m )
Height: 31 ft (9.45 m)

IL-38
Length: 129 ft 11 in (39.60 m)
Wingspan: 122 ft 9 in (37.42 m)
Height: 33 ft 4 in (10.16 m)

Tu-95
Length: 162 ft 5 in (49.50 m)
Wingspan: 167 ft 8 in (51.10 m )
Height: 139 ft 9 in (2.12 m)

Ain't that the truth ;-)

http://bp3.blogger.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/SArcse...s1600-h/P-8.jpg

First P-8A Poseidon fuselage being lowered into a tooling fixture at Renton, Washington on April 3 2008