Howdy, dudes.

Been lurking for a while, time to join the ranks.
If you need something translated or have a question - dont be shy


Z.

Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to your active participation and would like to see more Russians here, time is changing and we Pakistani feel we should get into close co-operations with you guys.

Здравствуйте!

Welcome to our forum comrade.

Welcome to the forum.

Aoa

Welcome to PDF.

w/salaam

Hello



Contribute Positively

Dasvedaaniyaa

Previet da idisooda placeebo babooshka herayshaw davai niet sooka hui blayt - thats the extent of my Russian

Wow, not bad! My Russian is limited to, Previet, Da and Zadrastavoi!! At least you can string a sentence together!

However, on a more serious note, I wander what our new comrade thinks of a possible (future) Russian-Pakistan-China bloc?

Thank you, but I don't know if I would call that a sentence and the last three words are curses.

Really strange a Russian comes to a Pakistani forum to show his face, Russia should know that Pakistan loves peace but if Russia is part of any anti-Pakistanist conspiracies Pakitan will destroy Russia like we did in Afghanistan. Only little Russia's will be left.

Apart from that, Long live Pakistan and Russia.

Really strange a Russian comes to a Pakistani forum to show his face, Russia should know that Pakistan loves peace but if Russia is part of any anti-Pakistanist conspiracies Pakitan will destroy Russia like we did in Afghanistan. Only little Russia's will be left.

Apart from that, Long live Pakistan and Russia.

Captain i have always admired your posts and words but your welcome note was a bit harsh and frankly Quite twisted i have to disagree with what you said the fact is a stable pakistan would be best for the rising Russia.

yea beside even indian members are allowed here as long as they contribute positively, so y not russians?

Welcome.

TBH, Russia and India aren't so tight anymore now that India is trying to buy military equipment from the US. Check what they are saying now that Russia is refusing them ToT for the T-90S. A lot of them are saying "f*ck Russia". Pakistan and Russia do not have to be enemies.

That's too red-neck American for a Russian.
Nevertheless, in my neighbourhood, a building is rising named Absolut, and now I have a comrade named Smirnoff.

Cheers!

Welcome ...... can you help us sling some dirt/mug on the indians ...

we'd appriciate it.

LOL

LOL, guys!
Zmey, zdorova, zemlyak!

not a chance in hell, frankly speaking. The cultures and ambitions are just too different. Besides I think that all three countries are perfectly capable to be completely independent.

Hehehe... well part of the reason why I came here, is to meet new interesting people. Funny people like you, Captain are rare. :D

Privet, sibiryak. Ne ozhidal vstretit' russkih. Kak tut... khe khe... obstanovka?

The idea is not any formal confederation or anything similar, but somewhat a loose alliance on international forum to look after others each interests.

As much as I would like to say "its possible and should be done", a realist in me says - no. The national interests of the three countries are so vastly different from each other than any kind of political or military alliance is highly improbable. We can all trade to our hearts content, but thats the limit.

There are certian tensions between Russia and China. Many Russians fear and distrust Chinese. Pakistan for average Russian is a land far far away with flying carpets and blue jinnies. Religiously and culturaly all 3 countries are again completely different. There is no common ground to built lasting relationships. The role of Pakistan in USSR/Afghanistan war is still fresh in the memory.

Bottom line, the three countries should be friendly trading parters and cooperate in peace to achieve whatever mutual goals we have. Anything more than trading is, i'm afraid, a pipedream.

Regards

Z.

My friend there is a common threat perception, that all the three countries are facing. The way I see it soon(~10 years time) Pakistan will not be so cousy with the west (think of the tacit backing they are giving to the insurgents in Baluchistan), the expansion of NATO to former soviet republics and the deployment of ABMs in europe is no secret and need I go on and tell you how the US is trying surround China. Its not for the love of each other that we may come togather but because of a need to survive and look after our interests:)

I hope it wont come to that. But if it does... you'd have to include India into the equasion. That would be the only way to avoid Russia being the 5th wheel. Good relationships with China could be the link... a proverbial glue that holds that alliance together.

comrade Z., would you please explain this more detailedly? why? feel free to say any your ideas.
i can't imagine how rampant Us would be if Russia and China couldnt stand aside with each other firmly.

we have settled disputable border issue. i dont think there are severe negative sentiments in Chinese hearts to Russian.

what is your comment on SCO?

Bottom line, the three countries should be friendly trading parters and cooperate in peace to achieve whatever mutual goals we have. Anything more than trading is, i'm afraid, a pipedream.

That's the start which suppose to happen .. the rest we will leave it to history to take form ! If it does happen !

Before I continue, let me make a small disclaimer - whatever I say is my personal opinion, vision or interpretation of reality. I do not represent any entity, agency or Russian people as a whole :)

There are several issues that many Russians have with China. First and foremost is massive illegal migration of Chinese nationals into south Siberia and Pacific coast areas. Chinese that move there, reside in tightly knit communities. Often dont learn Russian and dont assimilate into the surrounding society. Naturally, such people are met with mistrust and emotional hostility. Secondly, there is a popular and pervasive stereotype that China wants to take Siberia and Pacific coast away from Russia. In conjunction with illegal immigration it creates further mistrust. While many educated people realize that such stereotyes are simply untrue... they persist.
Border issues, territorial disputes and ecological problems dont add to the rosy picture.
China's explosive economic and military growth fuels more stereotypes. Especially in the context of Russia' economic crisis and reduction of the military. That pretty much the jist of things without going into major research. Overall, China is seen as vital trade partner, but not ally. Strength and prosperity of China never leaves the back of the mind if you know what I mean.
Perhaps when Russia strengthens own economy and revitalizes the military and gains parity with China, such fears will vanish. For now... China is seen as Rich and Powerful neighbor, whose intentions are unclear.

SCO is a token organiztion without any real-life application. Conducting military exercises chasing imaginary terrorists and cooperating in peacetime is great, but it doesnt fool anyone. While CIS is a military alliance, SCO isnt. China's war wont become Russia's problem and vice versa.

Hope that answers some of the questions. Sorry if it wasnt as positive as you hoped. Feel free to ask more.

Regards

Z.

Sure if you can persuade them not to join the "asian nato" that they are so willing to a part of, remember relations between countries is not a love affair :)

No kidding :)

To Comrade Z.

very thanks for your detailed ramarks. just for communication, we both are not agents after all.
as we know, china propagandizes a peacful rising to the world and all chinese agree this in my view. so Chinese hardly understand the threat of China to other country. maybe we still live in poor would be better for the planet. *grin*.

any way, i dont want to explain the issues of both the illegal immigrant chinese in east Russia and the land of siberian and far east Russia. these should not be concerns for Russia. but if you take these seriously, it is a pity.

when it comes to the china's fast development, it seems the whole world fear this. India, Russia, Japan, south asia, let alone Us, EU. what can i say? let the time tell the truth that how Chinese love peace after the 100 years suffering from wars.

i just wanna say sovereignty integrity is the top priority for Chinese, mainly aiming at taiwan. i can't smell of warlike in terms of invasion by China.

not a propaganda, just an average chinese feeling.

cheers.

wsi.

Trust me, I am not among those who believe in "upcoming Chinese invasion of Siberia", but if I am to offer balanced overview of Russia/China issues, I had to mention it. Objectively, I think China lacks transparency, openness. But that is completely subjective. I am planning to travel to China in 2010 - I am sure that I will return a changed man.


Z

Normalyok) ya tut uzhe bol'she goda. Tolko vot preduprezhdenie dali za predskazanie smerti Benazir Bhutto :(
A esho ya ploho znayu english :(
A tak vsio v poryadke. It's good 2 c more Russians here!

Let's translate:
1) hello 2) yes 3) come here 4)??? may be "spasibo" (thanks) 5)grandma 6)horosho (fine) 7)let's 8)no 9)b**ch 10)di*k 11)wh*re

Я тоже рад здезь встретить русских. Я в июне 2005 участвовал в курсе русского языкв в Владивостоке. Очень интересно со студентами из Японии, Кореи, Китая общаться по русски. Я могу подтверждать что русские часто боятся китайцев.

Я уважаю китайцев за то ято они прилежно работают. Но сожалею что они не понимают что за такое свободная мысль.

That's why I thought, Musharraf was trying (really hard) to have peace with India.
We (Pakistan) have reached a point (today), that as a sovereign, and a militarily strong and independent nation, relying on the West 100%, and hoping one fine day OIC will come to our rescue, has been pushing us back in time.

yeah, there indeed are a few radical souls on internet in China. but i think they are just some youngers who think it is cool to express some different ideas from GOV or big majority. and in real life, chance is high for them to be a objective person especially after maturity with age.

as for the transparency, China does need more efforts to clarify our direction. but english media also play a big role in blaming China and making ppl fear China. China advocates a harmonious world, but english media mainstream just dont buy this or distort this intentionally. i really hope the rest world ppl can understand chinese , so they will get a full picture of China by surfing on chinese webs.

china is not lack of openess in economy, maybe it is yes in political areas. china's political system is the target of attacking by western. and they never cease the infiltrating activities, so CCP must be cautious of this.. every time of democratic movement in China would see the shadow of Us, even now they still recruit some naive or dissent chinese through greenback to disseminate anti-gov remarks on internet. a tumult China would tally with western interest, but democracy need be carried out step by step and can't fall down overnight.. we have 56 ethnic groups and some splittest, democracy must disintegrate the nation, IMO.

it is very unlikely that russia would go for an alliance in which india is not a part. though the warmth which was part of the relation ship between russia and india has diminished considerably, still for russia india is much better a partner. as mr. smirnoff pointed out the memories of afghan war and the way russia (ussr)had to move out of afghanistan was still fresh in the minds of the russian people and the administration. russia and pakistan can be better business partners but to stretch that to the level of military partnership could be a distant dream.

Not only I dont see the realistic possibility of military allieance between Ru and Pak... Frankly, I dont see the purpose. There is only one threat to both of our countries. And I dont see Pak readiness to fight it . Not yet at least.

Z.

Time will be a better judge, lets see when you'll realize that your old friends are finding new alliances. Maybe, with time you'll see what I mean.

Lets hope, so. Because right now, I have no idea what you are talking about :) What "old friends"?

India ofcourse, it is becoming more and more inclined to join the western block, there was even a talk of forming an "asian nato" during the visit of the japanese PM visit to that country. Anyways, irrespective of whether Russia is interested or not, a new block is surely forming in the east, with China and Pakistan being part of it and other potential partners that are now slowly moving away from the west.

The further India moves from the West, the better it is for business. Just because India is a major customer of our weapons and we cooperate on some political issues doesnt make India a "friend". Russia has three friends: Army, Navy and the Air Force. Everyone else are partners. Partnerships are based on mutually beneficial relationships, not ambigous "friendships".

Z

Bingo! and once the interests become mutually exclusive their is no "partnership" either and as they move closer to the west, they won't stay a large importer of arms from Russia, you can already see the thrend of importing more and more western weapons system.

Well, thats how the cookie crumbles. If India wants to spend more money to buy equal or enferior product, they can. I just dont think that they are that... unwise.

There is no shortage of orders from other customers. Sukhoi is working overtime just to cover all the orders. India wont be hurting anyone but themselves. On the other hand, if they find better products, better prices and better service, they should use the opportunity. Thats business for you.

Z.

Thats the point I have been trying to make. Now consider this, what if india does go for more western weapons and the amount they procure from you plummets, at the same time Pakistan comes in and ask for defence cooperation (read sales of weapons), would it be in your interest to deny Pakistan so as not to offend the indians or accept the co-operation (expand your weapons market)?

Now look even further, why do you think would it be impossible for Russia, China and Pakistan to expand the relationship even beyond this economic and defence aspect, why would it be wrong to back each other up on international forums on interests that are either common or of an individual country and if all this does happen then what we have is a loose alliance (not a formal one) that I have been talking about right from the begining?


P.S.: Does the recent RD-93 resale ring some bells?

There is no need to wait - if you want to buy something, you need to just ask. Deals can always be negotiated if you approach it correctly. If you cant buy something from the front door - we can always sell you what you need via Belarus or Kazakhstan. But what are you willing to buy?




See, and now we are leaving the planet Earth and flying into the final frontier. Economic aspect is great because it comes with no string attached. Political cooperation requires the kind of cultural and historic link that out countries simply dont have. Ex. Is Pak willing to support Russia's anti-Albanian (muslims) stand on Kosovo? Chechnya? How about Abkhazia? Or anti-Baltic stand that can strain Pak's relationship with EU. Its very very difficult subject. Is such cooperation impossible? No, its not. Is it going to happen in our lifetimes? Not a chance.







I'm just glad that our 30 year old engine design can be of use to you. We can sell you enough of those to last you till cows come home :)

Pakistan is mostly interested in buying TBMD like the S-300 to protect our airspace and sensitive sites. We recently purchased 18 odd SPADA batteries from ITALY. There can be such sales from Russia aswell, The only thing that Russia needs to remember though is that we have other sources, US, China, and EU, Russian systems will have to compete in price and quality to get Pakistani contracts.



Ofcourse Pakistan is not going to support Russia on Kosovo, We support an Independent Kosovo, Chechnya? Though officially the government of Pakistan considers Chechnya an internal matter of Russia, Most decent Pakistanis consider the 1999 Russian invasion and occupation of the Chechnya Ichkeria republic a fraud.

Now, Is Russia willing to take a neutral stand on Kashmir? , Unless Russia is willing to change its position on Kashmir it can ever expect Pakistan to change its position on Kosovo, Chechnya, et al

The first principle of buliding relations is to look at issues that one can co-operate on, instead of looking at point of contention. Sure there are things that we don't agree on, but those are secondary not directly related to Pakistan. Kosovo issue, for instance, has no direct relationship to Pakistan and whatever has to be done, will be done between Russia and the west, it doesnot concern Pakistan period!

But think of it this way, maybe in the future we can help each other by neutralizing any "asian nato" or any such power grouping whose sole purpose will be to surround Russia and China and continue the neo-colonialism in the gulf/south asian region. If you still don't see it to be a common ground for co-operation (with regards to what I just said) then good luck to you sir, irrespective of Russian involvement a new orientation is being formed in Asia and China will play a major role in it, if you wish to be a bystander then its your choice.

I like how Captain Bribes just jumps on the backdoor weapons option

Welcome Zmey!

welcome Z.

I read most posts here, and frankly they were immature, unrealistic and ill informed for the most part... Pakistan does not need F-16s or fancy weapons systems, our biggest enemy is our ignorance, illteracy and poverty. How can Pakistanis who love their nation talk about buying $Billions in weapons when the oridinary Pakistani does not even have clean running water, electricity, schools that work, health, social security, etc etc.

We dont even have the basics, and we are so interested in spending on fake and artificial things. We have Nukes, we have enough weapons, make peace with your neighbours, apologize to Afghanistan for messing around over there. Then you wont need to make merchants of death rich.

Make peace and trade with the region and the world, make yourself strong economically so that nations respect you and offer you protection like the US offers Japan and Taiwan.

The handful of elite are destroying our nation with their unrealiztic ambitions. We are not and should not try to match India bullet for bullet, we are a small nation and our weapons systems are beyond our needs.

The military while protecting Pakistan has also been a suffocating factor, leeching on our very precious few resources, to comepnsate we have to bend over for the US who gives us aid.

Pakistani military should be cut in half and the savings be used for education, mind you...our enemies should be warned, we would not fight any war with F-16s as we are using the savings for schools and national development, but that we will fight any war with Nukes in a win or lose all.

Trade with India, Russia, China, USA, anyone and everyone....who cares.... trade will make us strong and prosperous. We live in a global village now and all nations are inter connected, get over the old enmities and old grudges, make peace, trade, educate, and prosper.