Friday, May 23, 2008

By Rauf Klasra

ISLAMABAD: The American government is said to have stopped Germany to contract a multi-million dollar deal for the sale of 800 Armoured personnel carriers (APCs) to the Pakistan army, after getting annoyed with the recent moves of the new political government in Islamabad to strike peace deals with the Taliban in the tribal areas.

Earlier, the American state department which actually hold the license for the manufacturing and sale of these APCs, being prepared in Germany as a part of defence agreement, had granted the permission to the Germany authorities to provide these APCs to Pakistan. But, now all of sudden, it has reviewed its decision. The sources said, the only consideration behind this move was none other than the recent peace deals in the tribal areas of Pakistan, as the Americans were found to be annoyed with the new political government at Islamabad.

This recent move was actually being seen as an attempt to put pressure on the new leadership of the Pakistan army so that the peace deals should not be contracted with Taliban elements in the tribal and other parts of the NWFP.

Earlier, this deal was put on the hold because of the European Union concerns after President General Æ Pervez Musharraf had staged a mini coup on November 3, 2007 after he sacked the judges and suspended the basic human rights. These drastic steps against the political forces and the judges had greatly provoked the European union to slap sanctions on the supply of the military equipments to Pakistan.

But, sources said, now after the return of the new political government in Islamabad, the German government again gave indication to contract the supply of the APCs, but this time, it is said the Americans have stopped the Germany to supply the APC.

When contacted by The News, Brig Æ Samson Simon confirmed that there were certain EU sanction because of action taken on November 3. “All the military trading of the equipments have been put on hold including the deal for the 800 APC”, said Brig Simon who is the director of Eastern Management Services, a business partner of the German supplier Fahrzeugwerk Gmbh (FWW)—-confirmed. He, however, refused to make any comment that now this time the Americans were behind the sudden move to block the supply of these 800 modified APCs for their use in the tribal areas of Pakistan.

Earlier, sources said, the German army had abandoned using these APCs after upgrading their own war weapons after handing over those used weapons to the North bound official Armies and repair and overhaul workshops in the Northern of Germany. The Germany was ready to sell these second hand weapons to different countries after their upgradation including Pakistan. After initial negotiations, the Germans were ready to provide these modified weapons to the Pakistan army, so that it could fight in the tribal areas more effectively. Although, the Pakistan was also using its locally manufactured APCs in the tribal areas, but they were said to be not as effective as these German could be because of their standards and quality. These APCs were being sold at very cheap price, if compared to their actual prices of these items, so that Pakistan could effectively fight against the terrorists in the tribal areas of the country.

Earlier, in December 2007, the FWW had got obtained the export license from the Germany as well from the US state department was granted for Pakistan. But, all of sudden, the government of Pakistan was informed that because of the political situation in Pakistan arising out of the judicial crises, the firm was asked to postpone the release of APCs for the next two months. Before the suspension in the supply of these APCs, the Germans were offerings these weapons after repair and maintenance in the workshops of Germany. These APCs were to be modernize with engine, gearbox, braking and stearing system and suspension system and protection according to the requirements of the tribal areas.

But, sources said now the German firm has been told that it should not further negotiate the deal as the Americans who actually hold the licenses for the sale of the APCs were not ready for their immediate supply.

When contacted by The News, ISPR Major General Athar Abbas said, he did not have any idea about this proposed deal. He said, however, Pakistan was using the locally manufactured APCs in the tribal areas where the police and FC were given these machines to fight against the local fighters. He said he would check with the concerned officials and return the call to give the full version.


http://thenews.jang.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=14884

I think this is once again an eye opening move by USA.HIT should build own APC's and use expertise from Germany.

Ho ho this is just the beginning... as soon as you stop being their servants, they will show their true colors

And we fall for it every time. So much money wasted.

There are still ground radars, AWACS and F-16s pending.

At least we have reduced the overall % of arms we get from US and its subordinate countries.

What about our own line of apc Talha and Saad, I think that is what there names are? Why are we buying from other nations in the first place.

They're just old US APCs from the Vietnam era.

Because ours don't have that much of a good protection and those sold are cheap.I think germans were selling us "MARDER" IFVs based on bradley but i am not sure.

I agree we should increase production in HIT and open up parallel manufacturing else where.
If we are going to be reliant on foriegners then we shall be open to blackmail. Why support jobs in USA when we can employ our own people ?

WTF! This is exactly how one can ruin its on industry... Why the hell we are buying these when we are producing our owns. If there are issue in protection even then this kind of stupidness can't rectify that..We will have to build them in small batches and improve next batch after testing previous batches... This really has raise many questions about the quality of Al-Khalid as well if it is true that SAAD and Talha APCs have protection issues.

WTF! This is exactly how one can ruin its on industry... Why the hell we are buying these when we are producing our owns. If there are issue in protection even then this kind of stupidness can't rectify that..We will have to build them in small batches and improve next batch after testing previous batches... This really has raise many questions about the quality of Al-Khalid as well if it is true that SAAD and Talha APCs have protection issues.

Pakshaheen .. it was a quick fix solution, especially when we see that attacks on our troops in WANA, but we all know how careless and low on priority is the WOT .. For USA the war on petrol & gas was much more important in Iraq .. in Afghanistan OBL has always been an excuse .. we got the much needed vintage helos of WWII in 2005 ! and that too in installments including training ...

However, I love sanctions .. our national is best when cornered. The last time they sanctioned us .. we got developped BM's, CM's, Al Khalids, Talha & JF-17 ... let the sanction begin at least for APV and show to us your real colour our friends of more than 50 years aka USA !

dont know how reliable this story is.

Folks our APC Saad will be using a German engine.

Anyways from H Khan on PakDef:

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=10

APC Talha

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg

Newly rolled out APC Talha being tested at Heavy Industries Texlia

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg

Front side close-up

http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/images/Arm...Defence.com.jpg

This news iteam is crap n the reporter should be smaked !!

Most of the said APC ie old/surplus M-113 have already been delivered.

So no worries

Remanufactured and upgraded by the Germans.

Any independant source or proof of delivered numbers out of total?

http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=10

I guess ull have to take my word for it

Thanks Mark and Marshal for the reply. But it would be a great favour if anyone could tell us the actual number of APCs being delivered. Besides what are the chances of other Weapon Systems being banned by Uncle Sam and its B!tches?

Regards
Haroon

M113 were showed in Swat operation also fitted with external silver colored armor plates.PA is surely fond of this battle bus.

IIRC those were sand bags with aluminum/steel sheets on them.Improvised tactics but i am not sure however, i have heard that PA used concrete slabs sandwiched between steel to protect their trucks.

lol yeah sandbags too.They whould mount a turret on M113 also for the gunner's/commnder's safety plus using a weapon more than 12.7mm caliber would be better,like 25mm or so.

Well if you have PA green book 1992 then on pg 238 there is a picture of PIFV(an IFV based on M113.)I wonder what happened to it?It had a 25 mm cannon on it with a 7.62 mm co-axial Machine gun.

Anyways just for general information to others.The armor of M-113 APC is composed of Aluminum not steel.

Come on guys our own APC Talha isnt that bad why we are buying from Germany! I thought the whole reason Pakistan was making APCs was so that things like this dont happen"! So whats all this indignous effort for?

Talha & Saad production takes time, best to stock up on the M113s for immediate use.

The M-113s can't even go against RPG-7s. They can only resist 7.62 NATO rounds and nothing else.

You're being a little rough on the M-113.

Tell me, what APC can resist RPG fire? Remember, APCs are typically designed to be a battlefield taxi, typically providing limited protection only, mainly against small arms fire and shrapnel from HE-artillery and mortar fire and sometimes against the effects of NBC weapons.

M-113 was designed to withstand 7.62mm NATO AP all-round point-blank and IIRC 12.7-14.5mm over the 30-degree frontal arc. The basic design was never meant to be proof against HEAT-rounds or mine-blasts. With bolt-on titanium, aluminum, ceramic, or high-hardness steel appliqué armor, however the protection level can and has raised, typically to 14.5mm all-round and 20-23mm (some packages 30mm) over the frontal arc. Against RPG-fire, SLAT-cages and ERA can and have been mounted. The vehicle can and has been fitted with a spall-liner.

FYI, the armor of the first IFV (BMP-1) - which was meant to be more than just a battlefield taxi - also cannot withstand RPG-fire. The basic hull armour on the BMP-1 can be easily penetrated by any HEAT round. While it is supposed to be proof against 20mm fire in the frontal arc and 7,62mm all round, it has been known to have been peneterated by 7,62mm AP from side and rear under some angles) and provides only protection against 12,7mm in the frontal arc. The rear doors are not armoured.
The M-113 equivalent BTR-50 has maximum armour that protects it against small arms fire and small artillery shell fragments. However, it doesn't protect against big artillery shell fragments and .50-calibre machine gun fire. Also while it's front armour protects it against 7.62 mm small arms fire, the 7.62 machine gun fire has been known to sometimes penetrate it.

http://www.defense-update.com/products/m/M-113-giat.htm
http://www.defense-update.com/products/u/urbanfighter.htm

M-113 (stretched MTVL version) w. titanium applique armor


M-113 w. spaced steel applique armor


M-113 w. SLAT


M-113 w. L-VAS

Probably titanium applique armor.

In total agreement with your comments, sir1

Because pre-owned vehicles are cheaper than new ones and this way you can get more armored vehicles while at the same time saving some money which can then be spent on buying a greater number of new vehicles then you could other wise afford. It's a constrained optimization problem: how to maximize the total number of armored vehicles as well as the number of home-built armored vehicles while minimizing costs.

How can we forget this lineup from IDEAS 2006 Ohh Plz don't miss that M-113 there

OMG pakshaheen thats a beautiful pic. Gonna use it as wallpaper!

Could anyone please do us a big favour and tell us that out of total 800 ex-German M113's, how many have been delivered. Thanks.

"Pakistan received 250 surplus M-113 APC from Germany. The contract was signed in early 2007 and deliveries were completed in Feb of 2008."
http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showpost.php?...mp;postcount=58

Thanks Penguin. I really owe you. So, does it mean the rest 550 have been denied. And it will be history?

How do M-113 variants compare to BMP variants, particularly the Bmp-3, armour-wise and otherwise?

we already build APCs wich are far superior, basicly the same ACP but with a new engine, ECM suite, etc etc, our version has the highest wight to power ratio of all other APCs in the same catagory....but its more quicker to just buy 800 shells and then just upgrade them, this leave production lines free for AL-Khalids...and home made APCs...


SAAD Apc: new armour, fully NBC protected, advanced ECM, Datalink, 400hp (original M113 is 275hp), etc etc

You can't really compare M113 to a BMP3.

BMP is a class of vehicle. BMP1 isn't much different from M113 armor protection-wise, but its a different concept that assumes infantry will fight from the vehicle rather than dismounted. As a consequence armament is different and there are facilities which allow infantry to use their weapons from inside the vehicle. BMP2 is an improved BMP1 with a 2 man rather than a 1 man turret. BMP3 is an entirely new development, a break from the BMP1/2 family of vehicles. BMP3 has 80% part commonality with BMD3, which is an airborne assault vehicle.

what is about the M-113 contract with Swiss ^^ ?

That was in 2005 IIRC. AFAIK between 2000 and 2007 the only thing the Swiss delivered to Pakistan are 15 Skyguard units for use with 42 GDF 35mm AA guns also delivered. (ordered 2006, delivered 2007, checked with SIPRI)

whats about things like that ?

Would be good solution to give the Infantry and Storm Troops heavy or light fire support !





[img=http://img55.imageshack.us/img55/4893/m10601uo3.th.jpg]

If you want to keep up these days you need either a turret mounted 120mm breech-loading mortar or an automated autoloading 120mm hull mounted mortar

yes I know also about this systems but have Pakistan so much money for them ? no so we should use M113- Mortar Version !
with the help from Turks !

actually one of our varients of M-113 has these capabilities.

ohh and is that a experimental vehicle ? have pakistan produce it self ?

last i read it was a prototype...this was several years ago...

No, I think they were used in the Lal Masjid siege. Mortars were used to bombard the mosque, and I think they were fired from the M-113.

fine to hear that !

Your source?