Interims of equipment US airforce is far more superior than PAF and in such type of situation realistically PAF will not be in a position to pose any serious threat to USAF in this situation what best strategy PAF can adopt ???

Nothing. we will sit and just cry that they shouldnt have done it. Or we will say that it was paf that commit the strike.

That's about right. Nobody can act without government say so.

Unfortunately PAF wont do anything NOT because it can't but because these matters are directly related to who is in government. Mr. 10%s gov won't let it happen.
On the side note, PAF can retaliate and go offensive IF AND ONLY IF some one in PKgov has balls to do that. We may be afraid of retaliation but looking at recent wars (Hizbollah and Israel) I am sure we can now see clearly that these big powers can be tamed with "will to fight" and proper tactics.

The PAF is a airforce second to none. it never allows its air space to be violated.... yeah it work on the instructions from the President of Pakistan and parliament but still we are all capable to defend the aerial frontiers of pakistan

Ultimately Pak will have to defend pak for good or worse, otherwise there is no point in having a army, airforce etc and a defence budget... otherwise we are just wasting money on building up our armed force...

This is not just about whether we can fight or not its about self respect...


Alternatively we can grin and bare it then load up the militants with some good and destructive weapons, make a cock and bull press statement about how rogue elements have been able to steal a stock pile of weapons from us and set up a phony inquiry..



Then watch better equipped militants go kill U.S soldiers,,..



If the U.S wants to play then, lets pull out all the stops

I dont see any reason for PAF to be used just use Chinese sattelites and see where USAF major bases are stationed inside Afganistan just launch half a dozen or so Gories and Shaheens on the aircrafts lined up i think that would be a very excellent response lol one that would P!SS them off quite bad lol.

Meray bahi gali diya bagar baat karlo app sai guzarish hai, omeed hai kai app meri guzarish maan lo gai, app ka ghussa sahee hai apni jaga but one must realize the damn politics of this country has made our armed forces so weak that we cant go anything openly unfortunately.

We should not be blaming the PAF we should be blaming the leaders at the top.

If we have good forward thinking leader who is clever and he orders PAF to defend Pakistan against USAF we will suceed and have capability to defend it.

JF17 can fight Super Hornets anyday but that day wont come because we have cowards as our leaders.

One lion leading a 1000 sheep is more dangerous than one sheep leading a 1000 lions. Pakistan has many lions but our leaders are sheep.

Yai ki na mard bachay wali baat!

Agreed!

It clearly means that US has started a war wid us, n if afghanis can ###### US out of their area then Pakistan can kick them out of this whole wide world!!

Brother, don't mind my reply, but fighting won't solve a thing. That's exactly what the US and NATO are after. They are provoking and testing Pakistan's patience. Their evil designs are to deliberately aggravate the situation in Pakistan. They want a war. On the other hand, tolerating such blatant violation of our airspace amounts to cowardice. Our response needs to be well balanced. In this case, we should've intercepted their fighter jets and escorted them out of our territory. This is the tactic we need to adopt each time such a violation takes place. We need to use diplomacy where possible. Some brothers believe that Ghaddari and possibly other looters have made a deal with the US. The people need to get out and protest against such treason. There's no greater power than the power of the people. These looters won't last a day when the people mean business.

Most Pakistan Air Force personnel will probably have a heart attack if the government ordered them to confront the American Fiza'ya.

i know someone who used to be an Imam in the mosque of a major Pakistani air base. he said that in 2002/3 when tensions between india and Pakistan were high, PAF pilots used to request him to do "Quran Khwaani" every other day so that they dont have to go to war.

This is a US military option but one which its military planners won't implement. A miltary strike on Pakistan will be a catastrophic for the US army and one they would pay dearly for. PA will do to US army what Hizbolla did to Israel and even worse. There will be NO direct attack on Pakistani soil without PA agreement. And any attack will be limited to specific agreed targets. If Pakistan is attacked unilaterally you can be sure it will be disaster for all including India and europe. Iran , Pakistan and China have a war pact which was agreed after the USA attack on Iraq. Any attack on Pakistan would lead to a thirld world possibly nuclear war. US soldiers #### their pants against the Taliban so you can imagine what they will do if they fight against Pakistan Army.

Than what is point of joining air force when u don't have guts to fight.

the PAF will do nothing as it will be wiped out in 2 weeks by the US Air Force.

Than we will use anza's to wipe there air force out =)

Here is the real situation. Whenever the US attacks Pakistani soil, its because they have confirmation from inside Pakistan that there will be no real reaction. Hell, they are operating from bases inside Pakistan and have some bases fully staffed by US personel. We have already given them a free hand.

If the army or government was really serious about stopping the attacks on our soil, the US would never have attacked the tribal regions with those UAVs either. The LAST thing the US wants is triggering a direct confrontation with Pakistan forces.

This makes it clear to me that Pakistan has not "seriously" talked to the U.S. So if there is an attack on NWFP in the future, it will be because Pakistani govt/army is privately giving the go-ahead to US officials.

I realize that USAF is stronger than PAF and there's no way Pakistan can win a conventional war with the US, but you are way off the mark. It would take the USAF at least 3 months to overcome the PAF and pakistani air defences. This is not Iraq, and even that took 3 weeks. Pakistan is strong enough to make even conventional warfare painful for America. Of course after those 3 months we're totally screwed. But the fact is they would not dare.

Also, we don't live in an isolated world. They don't have the balls to attack a country directly bordering China.

So what should we do? Sit tight, make defense budgets, send planes for upgrades, talk about them and their capabilities here on this forum AND THATS IT????

Dear over the time, bad decisions on part of govt. and bad times have lead us to another dangerous thing. <Pessimism> and <Inferiority Complex>
Good thing is, this complex is shared by quite a few, bad is, its very existence in any amount translates into low moral of whole nation.

I mean we go to lengths talking about our Air force personal having heart attacks listening to name of war and “Quran khuwanis” for being out of war. Lemme make it clear, IT IS ALL PLAIN BS.

For proof and that on a smallest level, in this country, who goes to the air force? Ans: The cream of this nation. Who applies? Ans: Each and every young man. So who gets selected? Answer is: The most fit, worthy and high in moral candidate.
So what happens in academies? Answer is: they polish and perfect these selected few, keep their moral high and make THESE INDIVIDUALS BATTLE READY.

So how come some of you think that the whole Pakistani youth is so naive and doesn’t know who the enemies are and the fact that if they get selected, one day they have to face off with those enemies. Do you think they joined air force without any knowledge of challenges they would have to face, risk of death and just for having fun flying military aircrafts. What makes you think they complaint about “No good planes against adversary” NOW when they knew it right from the start, all along their training and even before they joined air force? As far as I know, PAF don’t keep their jets in hiding and tells people of Pakistan that they have flying saucers. PAF doesn’t lure youth of Pakistan telling that they’ll be provided them with laser guns to destroy enemy and ITS NOW AT THE HOUR OF NEED these fine men realized that it was a lie what the PAF has been telling them so LETS HAVE A HEART ATTACH or ask molvi sahib on the base to do QURAN KHUWANI for our chiknay chiknay asses.

I hope TOO concerned people GOT MY MESSAGE..

War would have meant them slaughtering hindus by the thousands. They were just showing their mercy for the indians.

Osama hiding in K2 area: Arab TV
DUBAI: Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden is hiding in the K2 Mountains of northern Pakistan, an Arabic TV channel claimed.

According to report posted at TV web site, the US secret services were intending to drive him out in a major military operation encompassing the northern Pakistani tribal areas.

According to the Dubai-based network, in the past few days the US security and military officials had a top-level summit at a military base in Doha to plan an operation to hunt for the al-Qaeda leader.Gen David Petraeus, the US commander in Iraq, and the US ambassador to Islamabad, Anne Petersen, were reported to have attended the summit.

so now they are heading toward chinies border????

Personally I believe that 50% war people fought through their mind if PAF adopt a effective technique they can actually counter USAF even though they have old aircrafts but they are still flying machines and can carry bombs beside that they have missiles to support them. For the time being US is not able to fight a longer war due to their economic problems and their busyness on many other fronts so if our generals use their week point as a strength they can take them down all they have to do is to prolonged the war for months.

I have studied some where that “It is not uncommon in warfare for a wounded soldier to "Take one with him." The most dramatic is that of a pilot with a damaged plane, with no hope of getting home, to ram the enemy, either in the air, on the ground, or at sea”

incase of any air attack if PAF use the old techniques “Special Attack” (in simple words suicidal attacks) then they can take positive results out of it. In World War II Japanese adopted this technique and results were amazing.

The other technique they adopted on Perl Harbor where they sent a big amount of aircrafts… the attack was un expected and carefully planed and it become a symbol of devastation in US history.

I believe Pakistan have a good info about the basses situated inside and around Afghanistan …. Missile launches on regular basses on different targets can also pay the damage on the other hand they must try to cut the supply lines of those forces which are based in Afghanistan and it can be done through various techniques which senior members of this forum can bring forward.

But for all these things do we have enough committed solders like old days Japanese and current Talibans ??? or still we are having plenty of Yahya khans in our trenches????

did anyone by any chance read the statements by the new upcomin presidents of USA. Barrack Obama clearly stated that he is willing even to bomb inside pakistan and Hilary Clinton was sayin that she wont.... the upcomin presidential elections will be a major thing for pakistan!!!!

oh i think they have countermeasures to Anza as well. PAF is not built to fight the USAF.

If iraqi's can kill 4000 americans with stones and pistols then we can kill 4 lakh americans for sure, wheather we have to eat snakes. where as China will surly jump in the war since our borders are common and chinese wont risk their national long term security.

Words mean nothing. Action means everything. If you just listen to the words, you can be terribly misled. For example, Bush's words include spreading freedom and democracy and helping muslims prosper. But when you look at his actions and all he's done is bomb muslims and while supporting non-democratic regimes ruling his "allies". Govts like Saudi Arabia who don't allow any freedom or democracy.

So you have to look at Obama's actions, his past history and not just his words. If you look at Obama's overall foriegn policy, the way he has voted in the senate and his attitude, it becomes clear that he will never attack Pakistan. If he becomes president he is going to pull out of Iraq. His worldview is very sensible, and he is likely to even pull out of Afghanistan slowly and end this fake war on terror. In fact he has actually lived in Pakistan when he was a young student and has Pakistani friends. Details.

Now compare that to ignorant people like Bush and candidates like Hillary and McCain. No competition. Obama actually sees people in other countries as human beings. The other candidates have never lived outside of the states and look at foriegners as inferior people who can easily be bombed. They are all about corruption, oil and the American industrial weapons complex.

That comment Obama supposedly made about Pakistan was 1 day after Hillary and the media started accusing him about being weak on defence because he said he wanted peace with Iran. So the next day he said if we have solid proof that another 9/11 is coming from Pakistani areas, we will go in and stop it. It was just a campaign stunt to seem tough on defence, and it has been blown way out of proportion by Hillary.

There is no way America with any leader is stupid enough to attack Pakistani soil without our army's consent. I believe if Obama wins, American intervention in Pakistan's internal politics will be greatly reduced. He voted against Iraq war. Wants peace with Iran. Has lived in Pakistan. Has pakistani friends. I am going to pray he wins

Londo m with u!!

We should refuse to alter our stance on the territorial independence of Pakistan on someone's whim. Any American strike within Pakistani borders of the scale and magnitude requiring a response from Pakistan would have to quickly delve into both assymetric and symetric responses.
Following steps would be required:
1) Ballistic Missiles against American bases in the immediate arena.
2) Use of Raad's to destroy American carrier groups.
3) A complete localization of Paf units along the motor ways.
4) An armored thrust into Afgahanistan.
5) If the armoured thrust suceeds, then we disband the infantry into localized units like Hizbollah.

Only daring moves will reap rewards, we cannot maintain a low intensity war against the Americans, unsustainable.

If Pakistan knows it about to be attacked it needs to first attack Diego Garcia and our ballistic missiles can hit that island in the Indian Ocean where USAF bombers like B2 and B1 are stationed.

Once USAF lost its bombers it wont be able to attack us and fighter for fighter PAF can keep fighting USAF and keep firing on USN in the Gulf with many missiles.

If Pakistan can line up 260 JF17 and 140 J10 it can sustain a war against US no problems. Plus Jabel Ali and Qatar are not far from us either we hit them too. In 2 weeks USAF will retire.

I dont think Qatar and other middle eastern states will allow US to attack Pakistan by using their bases and stations!

Sufi, aziqbal and aeromerix:

I think its better if Pakistan were to eliminate terrorists on its soil, then to engage in a fruitless war against the United States. Pakistan can never win any such war either.

Londo with all due respect to your post brother but the guy is firmly against Pakistan. His ranting is not a mere publicity stunt but rather part of his foreign policy that seeks to withdraw American troops from Iraq etc and the focus on the “real threat” which is in Pakistan. This arrogant f*ck has threatened us with bombing in front of the whole world and has talked about the “Pakistan threat” so many times he sounds like a broken record.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLbyBOfl_3E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIum0o-_LZk...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTwUAAmRuNM...feature=related


Barack Obama says he was inspired by Zionism

WASHINGTON: “Even before I fully understood the history of the Jewish people, the Zionist movement was something that I related to and connected to from my own experience,” Barack Obama told a Jewish audience in Florida this week.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...4-5-2008_pg7_60



He won’t win and the recent poll of Hilary supporters stating that they will vote McCain instead of Obama was devastating blow for him. He has failed to win over white working class voters which is crucial for him to even stand against McCain. McCain also has more appealing outlook to the independents and Hilary’s core voters who said RACE is a factor in how they vote.

Even if we ignore all the above just how much has Obama helped Pakistan or tried to? McCain has and is old school republican with strong ties to Pakistan and has pushed for FTA agreements and other assistance packages.

http://www.friendsofmccain.com/news/dspnews.cfm?id=80


$4,000,000 should be made available for the Pakistan Human Development Fund and $1,000,000 for the Amanut Society


In 2001, McCain cosponsored the Pakistan Emergency Economic Development and Trade Support Act. The bill, which never passed, was aimed at easing textile trade with Pakistan as a means of bolstering its economy and government


http://www.cfr.org/bios/662/john_mccain.html


WASHINGTON: The United States must make a long-term commitment to Pakistan and help it overcome the challenges of extremism and terrorism, prominent Republican presidential contender, Senator John McCain, has said.

In an article in Foreign Affairs magazine’s latest edition, McCain called for enhancing Pakistan’s ability to act against terrorists and bring formal school education to all its children.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...-10-2007_pg7_39




His run for the whitehouse was said to be endorsed by a radical evnagalist nut but McCain has publically turned him down.

Then in an interview with The Associated Press, McCain said he rejected Parsley's support, too.
"I believe there is no place for that kind of dialogue in America, and I believe that even though he endorsed me, and I didn't endorse him, the fact is that I repudiate such talk, and I reject his endorsement," McCain told the AP.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ia2hzmd...J4N50QD90R2TNG0


McCain later also repudiated the support of Rod Parsley, an Ohio preacher who has called Islam an inherantly violent religion.
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/22...agee/index.html

In terms of Pakistan McCain is the better man but for other parts of the Muslim world [apart from Palestine lol] Obama is better no doubt. So I guess people will have to weigh things out.

Pakistan may not be able to win a full scale war, but the PAF is well capable of leaving it's mark! and they know it. When the U.S attacked Libya, Col Qadafi turned to none other than PAF with confidence to attack American battle ships sitting off the Libyan coast.

can u please give full detail about it or give a link about it never heard of it?

Thats exactly what Soviets said to Afghanistan and USA to Vietnam: "you can never win".

you think a force of 1 million can fight a country of 150 million?

We do need to eliminate terrorists, yes, the ones with nefarious designs beyond our borders.

waz, every link you have posted, except for Obama's orginal comment video, is either broken link or a video of Obama's oponents or a blog of his oponents! COME ON. Provide some real news links to back what you say. The CNN link you provided is not about Obama at all.

I have been closely following the entire American election, and Obama is NOT anti-Pakistan, and Hillary and McCain are far more pro-Israeli than he is. It is incredibly naive to think that McCain or Hillary is "good for Pakistan but not for the rest of the Muslim world." As soon as Pakistan stops following American orders, we will join that list of muslim countries in America's eyes. Unless Obama is president. GOBAMA!


lol I gotta agree the crazy claims about Pakistan attacking US bases and carrier groups is far-fetched. It would be absurd to escalate a conflict like that.

But the issue is not eliminating terrorists on Pakistani soil either. Crude and brutal offensives by US military into the tribal areas is the reason these militants have appeared. They were no militant/terrorist attacks by these guys before the US invaded Afghanistan. As soon as Pakistan's policies start reflection Pakistan's national interest, instead of just America's national interest, these problems will disappear.

It does not make sense to have an extreme anti-american or pro-american stance. The government should just think logically and act based on what's best for Pakistan. And that means thinking about the impact on all the men/women/children of Pakistan, including in the western provinces.

I dont think anyone outside of your borders was responsible for the 50+ suicide bombings in Pakistan.

Best solution is to man the border with Pakistani army troops and deny the militants to have a safe haven inside Pakistani borders. Even if the Americans violate our border, we can send in a salvo of missiles near Bagram AFB just to rattle the yanks.

The PAF was in East Africa and Middle East for a long time, it was virtually running the show with French equipment in LAAF. After de-classification, diaries and experiences of PAF pilots deputed to these countries, is some times reproduced in PAFs journal SHAHEEN.

REGARDS

All the bombings inside Pakistan are due to external influence either due to India, Afghanistan or the USA. Eliminate all three out of the PAkistan equation and Pakistan shall be paradise.

I say again we are a formidable military opponent to any enemy. With a-bombs, h-bombs, neutron bombs, du weapons, cruise missiles , AA missiles, anti tank missiles, nuke subs etc no enemy on this earth will dare attack us unless they are suicidal.

Our archiles heal is from within.

Keep our BM prepared with Balgram base's coordinates feed in.

Being part of the PAF is now a career. Majority of pilots join the PAF just to fly around and boast that they are part of the PAF. None of them really have any will to do battle or actually defend the country.

LOL! , if usa airforce plan anything against Pakistan , from history we know it wont be usa alone it will full gang followed by tons of sanctions , on other side 110% bhindian will grin there filthy teeths as well ..... UAE, Qatar these arabs were major players of staged war agaisnt Iraq & Afghanistan Thou UAE also formal recogonized the taliban Gov .... to Me sorry no Chance to stand against allied forces with this type of leardership

i very good artical by Eric Margolis

I found it lengthy so I m brining forward only few major points out of it full artical is available on
http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis84.html

The Bush Administration may be preparing to lash out at old ally Pakistan, which Washington now blames for its humiliating failures to crush al-Qaida, capture its elusive leaders, or defeat Taliban resistance forces in Afghanistan
Sources in Washington say the Pentagon is drawing up plans to attack Pakistan’s "autonomous" tribal region bordering Afghanistan. Limited "hot pursuit" ground incursions by US forces based in Afghanistan, intensive air attacks, and special forces raids into Pakistan’s autonomous tribal region are being evaluated.

The tribal agency’s Pashtun reluctantly joined newly-created Pakistan in 1947 under express constitutional guarantee of total autonomy and a ban on Pakistani troops ever entering there.

But under intense US pressure, President Pervez Musharraf violated Pakistan’s constitution by sending 80,000 federal troops to fight the region’s tribes, killing 3,000 of them. In best British imperial tradition, Washington pays Musharraf $100 million monthly to rent his sepoys (native soldiers) to fight Pashtun tribesmen. As a result, Pakistan is fast edging towards civil war, as the bloody siege of Islamabad’s Red Mosque and a current wave of bombings across the nation show.
The US just increased its reward for bin Laden to $50 million and plans to shower $750 million on the tribal region in an effort to buy loyalty. Bush/Cheney & Co. do not understand that while they can rent President Musharraf’s government in Islamabad, many Pashtun value personal honor far more than money, and cannot be bought. That is likely why bin Laden has not yet been betrayed.

Any US attack on Pakistan would be a catastrophic mistake. First, air and ground assaults will succeed only in widening the anti-US war and merging it with Afghanistan’s resistance to western occupation. US forces are already too over-stretched to get involved in yet another little war.

US attack on the tribal areas could re-ignite the old irredentist movement to reunite Pashtun parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan into an independent state, "Pashtunistan." That could begin unraveling fragile Pakistan, leaving its nuclear arsenal up for grabs, and India tempted to intervene.

The US military has grown used to attacking small, weak nations like Grenada, Panama, and Iraq. Pakistan, with 163 million people, and a poorly equipped but very tough 550,000-man army, will offer no easy victories. Those Bush Administration officials who foolishly advocate attacking Pakistan are playing with fire.

The only external influence is the Afghan Taliban and Alqaida, whose employees called Pakistani Taliban have been responsible for the suicide attacks. There is no foreign state involvement.

Lost in the maize of cause and effect. Taliban have been instigated. Pakistan shut the border in 98 and allowed cruise missile strikes without justification.

Anyone who doesn't believe that there are no foriegn terrorists in Pakistan lives in cloud cookoo land. How many American and indian spies have we caught ? hundreds. And all of them spreading terrorism one way and another.

Are Baituallah Mehsud in Waziristan, Fazlullah in Swat, Faqir Mohammed in Bajaur and the Lal Masjid gangsters foreign terrorists ? Do they carry American or Indian passports?