As world oil prices jump and the straits of Hormuz become filled with dangers to the economic, social, and political well being of Pakistan, the Pakistan Navy is being modernized to maintain the nation’s security in the exclusive economic zone as well as on the high seas. Pakistan is expanding the number of marines it has from battalion strength to brigade strength and could even grow further as it develops the coastline. the Pakistan navy is patrolling the north Arabian sea as part of a coalition, to counter drug and human smuggling as well as the movement of weapons in an out of the country. Finally the Indian navy, the rival of the PN is building up its surface fleet, whose detection will be the work of the AWACS of the PAF, but the planned 20+ fleet of submarines is a major threat to Pakistani shipping.

Due to all these reasons, Pakistan should look into acquiring a helicopter carrier (not an aircraft carrier). A Helicopter carrier would allow marines and helicopters to be available along the coastline in force, to detect enemy ships and subs, engage hostile landings and move troops to regions in times of emergency.

The Italian navy is due to retire three helicopter carriers of the San Giorgio Class, to make way for full aircraft carriers. Pakistan could acquire at least one vessel and use it as a helicopter carrier, and strength the ability of the navy to project power within its exclusive economic zone, and in the north Arabian Sea. The youngest ship is only 14 years old and could probably go another 16-20 years of well maintained. Also due to the fact that it is going to be retired, they will be cheaper than buying one, and the operations and maintenance will be ready to go from day one. They will probably come with their own helicopters and landing craft and the ships could be upgraded to hold large AESA radar to give it the ability to become an AAW vessel with a lot of room for air defense missiles. It could form the core of a naval battle group and provide protection for other ships.

If patrolling within the exclusive economic zone it would provide info to the air force and land based fighter could be launched.

The ships are also not too large and would therefore be economical and within the budget of our navy. And in peace time could help as being transport ships for cargo, as well as disaster relief, as when there was flooding along the Makran coast line and in the Indonesian tsunami.

The ship could in wartime be a roadblock to Indian naval blockade and buy the nation time in holding back the Indians while the nation's defenses are completely ready to due battle, especially protecting the rest of the navy from obliteration if it is upgraded with AAW capability

The Indians paid 50 million for a helicopter carrier, and then money to upgrade it. We should get this because they are getting it, but because we could utilize a ship like this to really control our naval borders and strengthen our defense on a limited budget

This ship would be a force multiplier, similar to how the AWACS will be, providing more flexibility to their respective services and adding new dimensions to keep up with modern naval threats.

Also we have good relations with the Italians and some of their type 45 destroyer techs and ASTER 15 and Aster 30 missiles would really help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9mayyms79Q
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/san_giorgio/
http://www.jeffhead.com/worldwideaircraftc...rs/giorgio4.jpg
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/4478/sangiusto.jpg

we could probably get NH-90's or EH-101 for ASW if we get this ship as well as Aster 15/30 Missiles and a decent naval Long range radar

the europeans would know we would not use it as an aircraft carrier so there is no real danger to them, and we would say it was for patroing our zone just like the AWACS

San Giorgio Class are not helicopter carriers but landing platforms (LPD). They have a helicopter deck but no hangar (there are no lifts in or to the flight deck) and no means to support/maintain helicopters as a proper LHA would have.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/san_giorgio/

Well based on what Rafi said on PakDef:

No doubt the PN's Marine and Expeditionary elements will grow over the next decade, and the 'general outline' suggests LPDs will eventually be procured. However the current focus point is credible deterrence through surface combatants, submarines, aviation, strategic & space-based support. I think something similar to the Turkish Levent Class might be procured when the time comes.

There is an elevator, but if it is not enough, this ship could be modified to accomidate one
http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/28937/view/?service=1

here are the capabilities (scroll down)
http://members.aol.com/mircogr/ihelos.html

the tonnage and size is that of a destroyer
i think this ship with a troops compliment of approx 350 and 160 crew, with enough room at the bow to be modified for AAW will allow pakistan to have more capabilities on a limited budget
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if a ship like this were modified with an elevator, and also 48 cells (24 Aster 15, and 24 Aster 30) as well as an AESA Radar, then ...
this ship could provide AAW capabilities and with NH-90 and EH-101 type helicopters give modern up to date ASW abilities, and the escorts would be mostly for anti-surface warfare

if modofied as stated above and patroling say, off the coast of pasni or ormara (mid way along the coastline) then this ship could watch sea traffic and launch helicopters to maintain ASW patrol, and in the event (such as happened in the last few days) of a ship in distress/highjacking within our zone we could take action

this ship could have enough room to provide support in flood raged areas along the coast and launch troops in missions abroad, we could resuce in tsunami missions

what i am basically trying to say is this ship has alot of capabilities, and should cost too much (tonnage range is 5000-7000) and would give more capabilities then an average DDG, sort of like the Japanese Helicopter Carrier, but lighter and within our budget
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As for the mission of the marines, this ship will probably be scrapped if not procured, and a new ship would cost alot, and considering we can get it soon, we could procure it and prepare it (because if we wait, then by the time we need it, we will have to spend more and will have lost time in traiing on it)

we could train with the coalition forces as part of CF-150 (the italians would like it that we are procuring for them to forfill our coalition obligations, and would give us new tech)

Japanese Helicopter Carrier
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1385/135674...319f82fae_b.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1075/135674...4ce12d32b_o.jpg

A Helicopter Elevator could be put in near the rear such as in the japanese Design
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:%E3%81%...9_%E6%A8%AA.svg

and also VLS cells could be put in front of the superstructure instead of a crane (which is replaced by the function of the elevator)

Info on New Japanese Helo Carrier
http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/new...0708270007.html

Look at the mission, hunting enemy submarine (that is the primary mission)
with an indian navy planning to field 20+ submarines (getting a ship with place for many helicopters; large ones; which would already be at sea protecting the rest of the fleet, is what the japanese ship is designed to do)

eh-101 and nh-90 could be procured and we could protect our navy from silent assaisins, while the air force cover the surface fleet against enemy ships and planes

These sort of ships are used for projecting power in remote parts of the world. Pakistan at this moment in time doesn't have the economic power to go down this route and so purchasing such ships would be a waste of money. We should instead invest more in satellite technology and nuke submarines.

How about just buying a second hand Cargo Ship called Buil Carriers as below and modify them to carry helis and jets???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sabrina_I_cropped.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Resim_057.jpg

Good point saleemraja; we are tied dwn in our land based obligations, but if we are going to buy new european multirole frigates for billions and new european submarines for billions more (which i agree with btw) we ought to organize the ability to dominate our exclusive economic zone from the indian navy

the price tag i envionsion for this ship would be in the neighborhood of $500 Million, 100 million for the ship, 200 million for ASW helicopters and 200 million for AAW modifications

the ship could be leased out by pakistani companies to do oil surveys or other commercial ventures by pakistani companies requiring a large moving platform at sea, we could also move our UN troops and their supplies by sea and this ship could also serve as a replenshiment/cargo ship for our navy with its cranes
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second hand cargo vessels will give us a deck, but not hanger space
acquiring a purpose built vessel that is outfitted is a safer bet

the ship could be leased out by pakistani companies to do oil surveys or other commercial ventures by pakistani companies requiring a large moving platform at sea, we could also move our UN troops and their supplies by sea and this ship could also serve as a replenshiment/cargo ship for our navy with its cranes

Due to marine offshore oil wells in the Khaleej / Hormuz there is lots of commercial application for helicopter platform .. but than again we don't have so many private enterpreneurial stills .. do we !

These carriers are very expensive to purchase and run. A helicopter alone cost around $20000 a day to run including fuel, maintenance, personnel etc so does it make economic sense at the moment? I don't think so.
With the price of fuel going up the costs will go up higher. However if Pakistan is to build the ship then I am all for it.
Most of our warships have helipad and an operational helicopter so do we really all that many. Its probably cheaper to hire for an occassion than have one full time ship or perhaps we coujld use the services of friendly countries.

where are you going to get a helo carrier for 100 million? Have you checked the prices on the European ones recently.

And you realize that there is a huge difference between military grade ship and civilian ship in terms of the additional features put in to improve survivability, right? There are far more things you need to concern about for a mlitary ship. You can't just simply get a moving platform as you said.

I dont think that PN needs helicopter carrier in time of war it will very easy target from enemy fire if we dont have the the support ships to escort it.

China is working on a helicopter carrier and I think we should allow Chinese navy permanent access to Gwader and Arabian Sea using thier carriers when they get on in the future.

Pakistan doesnt even have enough helicopters let alone a helicopter carrier! We operate that freggin lama chopper which went out of date in the 1950s.

Pakistan seroiusly needs choppers and China is our best opition.

That elevator is for cargo. It is not for aircraft of helicopters. There is not a hangar beneath the flight deck.


Indeed, they are LPDs not LHAs. Just like I said. Only the deck can accomodate helicopters.


No, what you are talking about is more along the lines of the Garibaldi, which is substantially larger (nearly twice the displacement).

At 18k tons FLD, the 16DDH is nearer the British Invincible class in terms of size (21k tons FLD) than it is to the Garibaldi class (14k tons FLD). The San Giorgio class is about 8k tons FLD.

Like Atlantic Conveyor?







US Arapaho concept

Absolutely something along those lines but modified to carry both active and/or passive defence systems. I mean think about it--this ship carried 6-helicopters and 5-Chinooks during the Falklands war. PN can get something like this.

What do you think?

considering what all of you have stated, the atlantic conveyor method would seem best, as long as the ship is modified for housing troops and carrying 5 helicopters for ASW role

when the threat is lower the ship could be come civilian vessels

either way, we should do something like this to patrol for submarines

Uhh I like the idea of Helicopter carriers

Just put the EH-101 on standby, I know that I before have said that this is great, but the Danes are having quite a lot of problems with it atm, birthproblems.

But what are we supposed to do in the Hormuz strait? Can we do anything? I mean claim, or protect or anything else in the interest of Pakistan?

any of these on offer to pakistan?otherwise back to Z-9

should we not focus on helicopters first?

i don't think there is a need, it would take a lot of resource to defend this carrier and the role it carries out could be achieved with P-3 orions.

the primary mission is carrying large ASW helicopters with the fleet while it is on patrol, and enough of them so no enemy sub can be close enough to lanch a surprise attack liek the threat of the chinese song sub to the us carrier

our Z-9's don't seem like they are enough

I don't think that is the issue, Pakistan needs to release a tender and it will get offers such as NH-90 and EH-101. Though their high cost might prohibit the PN from procuring a high number, and might limit their use as a direct replacement for the few Seaking helicopters. A lighter helicopter such as the Z-15/EC-175 would be more applicable IMO for use on most surface vessels as well as forming an aviation arm for the Marines. I think an LPD or two would be ideal for the PN in becoming more involved in international operations such as peace keeping, humanitarian initiatives as well as ability to deply troops around Arabian Sea coasts.

tey key question is; are we going in that direction
and if so, then getting these ships, which are just enough might be what we want
otherwsie they will be scrapped and we would have to pay for more expensive ships to do the same thing in the future

A converted merchant ship for ASW helicopters makes little sense IMHO. It would be way too noisy. Not to mention vulnerable and dependent on escorts.

Well if this can be achieved on a much cheaper basis I think it is a sound investment!! Why wouldn't a converted reliable merchant ship, with some defence systems, and capable of carrying many helicopters not be a sound investment???

how about a purpose built or a properly modified merchant ship, adapted to minimize the sound/rcs/and IR signature, but can still do civilian duties in peacetime not only could alarge vessel like this launch helicopters, but UAV's, which could patrol for along time, and be used to spot suspecious naval activity, especially if they could be stealthy

a design we should look towards developing on, is the chinese dark sword uav
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1711/2564...16737894ji2.jpg

deploying these with a martime radar and a E/O sensor in a search pattern at the edge of AWACS coverage should reinforce the navy and give it time to deal with an attack

ISI, I think Dark Sword is a UCAV and not a UAV!! UCAV is basically a unmanned combat jet.

The UK used STUFT-vessel to beef up its amphibious capability i.e. to bring in additional utility helicopters and Harrier jets while not using the main decks of the Hermes and Invincible carriers. Note that they didn't use Atlantic Conveyor to support the aviation, just to transport it. Note also that they didn't deploy ASW helocopters onto her. Concepts like this and the US equivalent (Arapaho) were intended for support, utility and special force missions, and only limited ASW tasks and no AShW tasks.

our budget is limited, so these ideas should be looked at

You might be better of with something along the lines of the Japanese DDHs (Haruna/Shirane classes)that are being replaced now by 16DDH. A modern day version of these ships could combine command facilities with area AAW and 3 large ASW helicopters. They are quiet and avery ble to fend for themselves, while adding needed aviation to a task force. Consider that your ex-Dutch AOR can also accommodate up to 5 lynx sized or 3 Sea King sized helicopters

If you had 2 of these, plus 4 OHP and 4 F22P and 2 AORs, then you'ld have 2 flottilas, each comprising 5 multipurpose ships and an AOR, with a total of 7 large and up to 7 small helicopters (1x3l + 2x2l + 2x1s + 1x5s).

good option, we should look at it

there is a serious submarine threat, which p-3c orion would not be enough, and a dedicated ASW fleet of truely modern ASW helicopters like EH-101 and NH-90 could hunt

the PN should study it