Modified 054A or an European Frigate?

Pakistan plans to purchase frigates, larger then the f-22p, but with more multirole capabilities, especially AAW. Which of the two options is best? weighing capability, price, local production, and future development which should pakistan use to form the lead of the future surface fleet?

PN should focus on replacing the current 6 friagets first, e.g. with F22P. Then expand the number somewhat e.g. from 6 to 9, while keeping a modern SSK force of about 6 boats. Then - and only then - add up to 3 ships with better AAW. That could mean ESSM, which compared favorably to HQ7 as far as area coverage is concerned. Not sure that PN would need anything more far reaching at this point as the navy will continue to operate under land based air cover as much as possible. Sea denial.

I really like the Type 45 destroyer. It can defend fellow ships, landmarks and itself ALL at the same time.

Which USN destroyer comes close to the Type 45? I dont think Americans can make anything in its class.

Are you suggesting a 7350ton Type 45 (of which UK will get up to a total of 8) is hugely superior to a 9000 ton Arleigh Burke (of which the US has 52 in service and will get up to a total of 62), particularly Flight IIA version?

Wow thats some fire power US has there penny but I didnt mean in numbers I meant in terms of individual capability, they were showing a programme on reporting scotland when the first Type 45 was launched and recently they showed the sea trials with camera crew onboard and it was totaly awesome! It looks much more stealth than the US destroyer.

It made a U-turn in 3 times its own lenght while tilting on its side and can intercept any known cruise or anti-ship missile, the radar (cant remember the name) they showed was just as cool which they said can track nearly 600km of wide ocean and 300km into space they also said its the most advanced piece of naval equipment the Royal Navy has ever produced or operated! If BAE systems say these things it must be true since its one of the best aerospace consortium in the world, No?

I agree its a nifty bit of gear ;-)

We may see some improvement if the OHP w/ESSM are procured, so far 6 frigates were requested and we'll probably hear more by 2009. Beyond that the PN will likely field an ESSM/Aster-15 type system on its Future FFG - intial batch of 4 frigates - with the top contenders being the Turkish TF-100 and Chinese Type-054A. PN may expand the TF-100/Type-054A fleet to 8 ships and possibly augment the fleet with 4 larger 5000-6000 ton frigates with long-range air defence capability. However I don't expect such capability before 2025.

It would be interesting if Pakistan could acquire capability similar to the SM-6 ERAM by 2025.

for the sake of arguement lets say pakistan's budget is for 3 AAW frigates (under 6000 tons) the government can spend no more than US$666 million per ship

the chinese option is probably in the neighborhood of $400 million export and the european is at the price limit

now should the pakistani navy as for a 054A modifeied to carry longer range (longer than standard 40km missiles) and get long range radar which is untested) or go with a tested european frigate with 30-40km aster 15 and 120km aster 30 at $2 Billion for 3 ships

the main point is build a design with china or just buy a european design, like AAW mod of Fremm Frigate called FREDA

There is also a chance that Pakistan may join in the development of the Turkish TF-2000 - as long as it is a local Turkish design. The other option would probably some future Chinese air defence FFG/DDG available in 2015-2017 when PN could order new AAW FFGs. I don't know if the SAM systems would be simple imports, given the post-2020 induction date the PN might have room to rely on the Pakistani industry. The platform might be designed by Pakistan to meet all-spectrum requirements - not only technical, but also political in the sense of securing reliable suppliers. While we may use a design inspired off the Turkish TF-2000, we would use Chinese propulsion instead of Western - unless the Turks develop their own, which they're reportedly studying nowadays.

As for SAMs, according to H Khan on PakDef, Pakistan is working on a long-range SAM with 2 undisclosed countries...it is very likely that any naval system would be based off this system. Likewise I personally think a local medium to long-range SAM (50-70km) is under development, and the naval medium-range SAM would be based around the local system. Obviously these SAM systems will likely be developed with foreign assistance, but realize that in the long-term Pakistan wants to either rely on its defence industry or secure reasonable transactions with reliable suppliers. Personally I expect some joint-ventures with Turkey and South Korea in areas such as TAS, light & heavyweight torpedoes and naval electronics. We'll probably seek Chinese assistance and cooperation in radar, AShM & SAM technology.

My take...AAW FFG based on TF-2000 design with changes in propulsion, radar & weapon-systems. Armed with VLS for medium-range & long-range SAM; possible VLS for AShM & LACM; ASW with lightweight torpedoes or possibly ASROC; standard helicopter as well as UAV/UUV use capability.

the turkish design would use american missiles, and the chinese design would use russian designs which are behind in electronics to the european designs

the FREDA design would have modern ASW and AAW (16 Aster 15's and 16 Aster 30's) and could be purchased in mid next decade and be ready by the end of the decade (while the other designs would take a while to build)

as a short term AAW filler, how about 3 054A as is with 32 missiles (at 40km range) and the rest of the fleet being f-22P frigates (at least 6 in strength) so we can have at least 2 054A and 4 F-22P ready all the time

the 054A, or by then 054X (X for what ever design their up to by then) could be purchased early next decade when we have evaluated the f-22p and see a need for AAW frigates

With the F-22Ps and Milgem's already in the pipeline, I think it will be a 1-2 years from now till we see news about AAW frigate procurement. All sorts of new options will be in the picture by then. Personally I hope we go with a Chinese option. The Type 054A has shown us they can make beautiful ships, and the capability:cost ratio they offer is unbeatable for Pakistan. Then again, the same is true for Turkish designs, which are truly next-gen.

U.S. Arleigh Burke (AB) is actually superior to the Type 45. The type 45 is only impressive if compared to other countries, and because its radar is more advanced and powerful when compared to one radar on the AB.

But the Arleigh Burke can also track an absurd amount of targets, and it has double the number of missiles.

Not to mention, all its anti-air standard missiles are now dual-mode, i.e. anti-ship capability.

One Arleigh Burke could actually sink two Type 45s in a fight. It has enough missiles to force two Type 45s to completely expend their VLSs and then some. All the time safely shooting down any incoming anti-ship missiles with its RAMs (which by the way the Type 45 has zero of).

Yes the Type 45 has "stealth", but it can't hide from the massively powerful aegis, and given the AB's ECM, both ships will end up seeing and confirming each other at the same distance.

I realize real combat is not a numerical paper exercise, but thats where the capabilities stand. And the AB is 20 years old. USN is no joke. Nobody comes close right now.

so what does the turkish design offer that the chinese 054A lacks

I have just looked over some articles on the freda and fremm
in US Dollars (at the current euro exchange rate)

FREMM is $500 Million
FREDA is $855 Million plus the cost of Ammo

i don't know exactly how much the chinese 054A will be at export, but chinese sources estimate building it costs between $300-400 Million

the capability gap between the FREDA and 054A is a long range (100km+) missile like the aster 30
the 054A only has a 40km missile

the radars on the two ships is comparable at 150km, but only FREDA can engage close to that range
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shoudl pakistan ask chian to develop a version of the 054A, that is alittle longer and wider so it can accomidate at least 2-4 Six pack HQ-9 cells and the asscoiated radar such as on the 051C Destroyer

the costs could be the same and the missile is of a size that can be upgraded
the HQ-9 also has ABM capabilities and could be upgraded with longer range as the s-300 derived system is improved over the years

the project coudl also allow pakistan to develop a larger order for medium range missiles like the HQ-16 and longer range missiles like HQ-9 to be upgraded and applied to both the pakistan navy and army as well as HQ-16 upgraded to use similar part as sd-10/pl-12 or pl-21 for cominatility

the upgrade would probably still bring the price to below that of the FREDA and would not make pakistan dependant on third party supplies as in the turkish design using RAM, ESSM, and SM-2

You have to open up to the fact that the Turkish design would be quite modular and open to most weapon-systems - not just American. If Pakistan took part in the development process of TF-100 and TF-2000, it could learn to integrate whatever it wants on locally produced ships. For example on TF-100 - a 3500-4000 ton frigate - the PN could put Herakles radar, Aster-15 SAAM & MICA-VL PDMS. Not to mention that the Turks are also looking to produce their sub-systems & missiles for their ships. In the scheme of things, I think TF-100 would be a cheaper design than the FREMM and even with French weapon-systems, still cheaper. The other option, is to use A-Darter as a basis to develop a medium-range SAM for land and naval use - similar to the Indo-Israeli Barak-8/MR/NG project. However the development option would require time and would only be possible if the OHPs are acquired with ESSM - which we do not know yet.

Currently co-development with foreign partners on local systems would be better IMO. We should try to utilize A-Darter as a basis for a medium-range SAM similar to IRIS-T SL and Barak-8. Perhaps join Turkey's light & heavyweight torpedo projects and cooperate with them in Towed Array Sonar technology. Develop a supersonic sea-skimming AShM with China; ship based AESA radars with China; other sensors and electronics with Turkey, etc.

china would probably not be willing to give a naval AESA radar to be integraded with american weapons like the essm
the 891 and 892 experimental ships of the chinese navy are testing a new smaller AESA Radar, some chinese forums suggest for the 054B

the 054A is ready, almost operational, and being produced now, at reasonable prices, its tonnage is 4000, and it already has SAM's in the range you suggest pakistan build with turkey

in sonar and other subsystems the turks could be ahead and those systems could be procured for a chinese option, but i ask again, what can the turkish design do in the AAW role that the chinese design does not already do

also pakistan might not want to get tangled up again in buying OHP frigates (which are not very stealthy, and will have to be replaced soon enough anyway)
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how about putting 16 HQ-9 SAMs on the 054A/B design and adding the Top Plate Radar and making the ship a true air defense ship, engaing not only air, but long range sea skimmers, and balistic missiles

I was referring to a Chinese naval AESA for use with locally produced Pakistani or imported Chinese SAMs similar in performance to ESSM.

Regarding the FFG choice, you need to consider that this order won't begin in deliveries until at least 2015 - hence it can go either way with Type-054A or TF-100. The reason why TF-100 is one of the favourites is because it is based off the MILGEM - which the PN reportedly chose for its corvette requirement. In general terms, Pakistani shipbuilding is importing the same technology for MILGEM and TF-100. As for SAMs, I would much rather see Pakistan co-develop something with the Turks based on an existing PDMS or WVRAAM...a project similar to the Indo-Israel Barak-8 based off Barak.

Here is information on this new Radar, which some sources say is like the european Empar (hundreds of KM) but only time will tell
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/2007/03/some...from-today.html

and here is a close up on the radar
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/734/891...nsormar6vl5.jpg

and here are the listed abilities (which might not all be true, as they are from a forum):

1. This new radar could retain SR-64's (the radar on top of the mast of the 054A) low altitude tracking capability + surface search capability. So, it will have to be located at the top of the aftmask like SR-64.
2. On top of that, it should play the same as a Sampson or EMPAR. I'm hoping it's dual-faced AESA radar rather than a single faced PESA radar like EMPAR, but the cost for Sampson is obviously a lot higher.

A list of Sampson's functions
1. Long and medium-range search
2. Surface picture search
3. High-speed horizon search
4. High-angle search and track
5. Multiple target tracking and multiple channel fire control.

So, 3 and 4 are basically old SR-64 tasks. It would have to have be rotating fast enough to provide mid course update to HH-16. (missile only on the 054A proving this radar could be for the 054B)

- Sea Eagle search radar's purpose would be for volume search and high altitude search, early warning - same role as Smart-L

- FCRs - be like MK-99 on DDG-51, basically providing terminal guidance and illumination of targets for HH-16. Now, this would allow it to direct a maximum of 8 missiles at terminal phase against 4 separate targets concurrently. While, other missiles could theoretically be in the air, not at the terminal phase and given update commands by the new MFR.

So, basically, this allows for higher tracking, better target sharing amongst ships using the same system, higher resolution, better detection of targets flying at different profile and higher capability against concentrated attack.
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the question now is can the hq-9 be intefgraed with the top plate and this new AESA Radar the chinese are developing
or will be "need a bigger boat" to house all this

turkish sams will be in the works while the chinese will have perfected the HQ-9 based long range sam and medium range HQ-16 based sam

the milgem based turkish design will have better electronics, and stealth, but if we produce that we can incorporate that technology into our ability to work with the chinese to custom design and build an AAW frigate to our needs with the long range chinese Radar outlined in the previous post and long range missiles like HQ-9 (90+km range) land based HQ-9's have a slant range of 200km

pakistan will probably not even consider the two designs until both F-22P and Milgem are delievered and operational, and until money is ready

if the turks have an indigenous SM-2 like system planned, the chinese will probably stay ahead in long range enagaments
considering the threat of Brahmos, a long range system like HQ-9 or SM-2 or Aster 30 is needed

here is an explaination of the current capabilities of the 054A (Basically HQ-16 is equivalent to ESSM)
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html

I thought it was recently revealed that the Type 054A was US $200M.

if thats true, even better, but at export prices that will probably go up with their profit margin, weapons, radars, logisitcs, etc.
especially if we have it built partially in pakistan which i hope we do

Regarding the Turkish SAM, few things to consider:

Firstly the Turks want to produce the missiles at home, and at this point the U.S. hasn't agreed to export of SM-2 let alone ToT for the system. The Turks don't exactly have the best of relations with the French, and it leaves Israel and China as the last big suppliers.

as not having recognized israel, the option of importing from them seems diplomatically and domestically challenged to say the least
that leaves china, whose missiles could be procured with their frigate

they have worked out the integration and are moving forward with a new AESA radar for their frigate (which the PN and GoP is watching)
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missiles aside, do the turks have a Naval AESA Radar in the works or in production?

Again they hope to co-develop one.

As for missiles, well it is not entirely sure if the Turks would go towards Israel...these days they are looking to heavily expand their ties with the South Koreans. Pakistan itself is opening up to South Korea - at least beginning with the 155mm artillery shell program - and the possibilities in land & sea based SAMs are there. Nonetheless, the Turks will not be simply importing, but rather properly developing their required systems with foreign assistance wherever needed. Even if Israel is a co-development partner, it does not mean that the Turks in their own capacity would not cooperate with Pakistan.

it is 200 million each, but there are several factors to think:
1) whether or not 054A price will go down with more ordered units
2) how much price will go up once newer and better variants come out
3) how much the missiles and munitions cost, since they are not part of the cost
4) how much helicopters cost
5) export profit
6) cost of ToT

any word beyond what i have posted on expected 054B capabilities, especially radar and missiles
and any word on the 10ton helicopter project, applications for ASW and development in general

So, you might have a ship with a Turkish built SAM system, the design of which is Israeli. If you consider what Israel has to offer in this respect, that SAM might well be a product that Israel co-developed with India. Is that a real option then?

That could be a possible issue, but then the Turks could also co-develop their system with South Korea, Diehl/Germany or the Italian branch of MBDA.

Which prospective missile systems are we talking about here?

That's the thing, from what I've been able to get, the Turks want to develop and produce a local system with a foreign partner's assistance in certain areas.

I assume much like they did with the SPGH project (i.e. an indigenized derivative of an existing South Korean system). Hence my question.