i am not sure how true this is. can anyone verify this news ?




http://www.zimbio.com/Fighter+aircraft/art...igenous+Flanker

EmailWritten by moinansari on Apr-23-08 9:41pm
From: rupeenews.com


This article will be udated periodically. UPdated April 25th, 2008

We will closely watch this breaking news, and monitor it very closely.

Reports stating Pakistan to cut F-16 order ‘likely a rumour‘, says MoD source A source from the Pakistan Ministry of Defence (MoD) has refuted media reports. Janes Defense Weekly

Per Janes Defense Weekly, the news item about the Pakistani refusal to purchase additional planes has been denied. What is amazing is that the original story was not refuted directly by Pakistan. Why did the Pakistani news media reported the reduction of the number of F-16s that it had planned to order? Pakistan had ordered 36 (18+1 F-16s from General Dynamics, USA. After the first 18, Pakistan had the option to buy an additional 18. According the news items planted in the press Pakistan had chosen not to exercise that option. According to press reports, the official “company line” is that the number of planes have been reduced because of financial constraints.
However the timing of the story about the cancellation is curious. Both China and Pakistan have set goals to increase mutual trade to the $15 Bilion mark. In China President Musharraf announced that the goal will be met that the number will be over $16.5 Billion. No business deal had been announced. The F-16 cancellation comes right on the heels of President Musharraf’s visit to China where ostensibly Pakistan has been offered some advanced Chinese hardware. The head of the Chinese Air Force and the Defense Minster of China are in Pakistan right now and the Foreign Minister is arriving in a weeks time. According to new reports Pakistan has been offered the Chinese 4th general J-11 (comparable F-15 Eagle, F-16 Fighting Falcon and the U.S. Navy F-18 Hornet.) with eventual transfer of the plane’s production to Pakistan. The J-11 is the latest and most versatile aircraft in the PLAAF.



continue.......

http://www.zimbio.com/Fighter+aircraft/art...igenous+Flanker

I think PAF would be aquiring J-10,not J-11.

Yeah i have been reading that the chinese are pitching the J-11 advanced flankers to PAF, another Russian news item reported that China might sell modified J-11's to Pakistan along the line what the Indians did with the MKI, this can turn out to be very interesting, people at Pakdef were also discussing J-11's with AA and Anti ship weapons could be solution PN might opt for its air cover.

Bro that is really interesting.
A twin engine fighter for PN, they haven't tried that before right ?

Bros if this news is true then pakistan will have a 12 hard points heavy duty fighter aircraft to match SU 30MKI. It all comes down to avionics then. For me J11 with FC1 will make perfect sense.

This doesn't sound credible to me at all.

Well I'd say J-11 is a 4th generation fighter that belongs to the same age group as F-15, F-16 & F/A-18...I mean J-11 is Su-27 afterall.

The J-11B is at this point the latest fighter in PLAAF, and it is better than the current J-10.

Though I don't think China is planning on exporting J-11B nor is PAF going to seek it in the near future.

It could be only for PN and it also makes sense to buy it only for pn. Other areas can be covered by j10 a little more effectively.

Well PN could find use in it, but I think PAF could use it well as an advanced fighter-bomber.

For ~40 years the PAF have flown the J-6.

I am against the induction of Russian stuff in Pak military!!

J-11B is not Russian stuff anymore tho.

This article makes a lot of assumptions. Maybe it is true, who knows, but I won't believe it until its official.

You guys maybe suprised... I do not see any strange parts in the report. F16 will be reduced. US is seen as unreliable and its power is decreasing. China is close friend. There are a few planes in development and we will be part of that. In 5-6 years the Indians will be no longer sure whether their MKI is better...

What about J-10 though, I thought PAF was getting J-10s in large numbers.

The Russian Su-27 and Chinese J-11 are very different aircraft. Also, we also have Mi-17 helicopters in our inventory as well as T-80UDs.

I second that, but the difference is that Russian stuff made and changed by Chinese is ALOT better (safer) than plain Russian.
Remember bro, J-6 and all the great J fighters in PAF are Mig frames



Munir bro, you really know how to make an insanely interesting post, without relieving too much!!

J-11B is not suitable for Pak.The price of J-11B is bigger than 2 J-10s.
If you get more finance.Please invest to integrate C802 or LS-6 with JF-17.

it all comes from that stupid Russian article that claims China is ripping off su-27 and trying to export it to other countries. Which by the way, is complete hogwash.

A load of nonsense.....Pakistan would not but J11 as its a twin engine fighter, more costly and who said that the Russians will agree to this. After Russia holds the licence!!.

^^^ The thing is J-11B the most upto date version of it the Chinese have, is purely Chinese made, radar, engine etc, the lot.

If it's good enough, and affordable, i say fo for it, we have no large scale strike platform of that nature.

no. i say no.

this seriously can't be happening. with the current state of our economy, we just cannot afford the cost of maintenance of a twin engined fighter. the J-11 is the most illogical option for PN (or PAF, for that matter).

all in all, i think the report is complete BS, as PN will probably be using JF-17s or J-10s, and PAF will be loaded with OTHER new fighters in the coming years.

Pakistan Navy can only true customer for J-11B. I am still not able to get any thing regarding J-10's range (one Pakistan is getting)...Advantage of J-11B can be in range and payload to hit IN's surface ships from stand off ranges.

Pakistan should keep its options open. It would be foolish to think otherwise. From what I've heard and understood, the J-11 is a very capable air superiority fighter bomber. Its range and hard points are very impressive. Also, Chinese tweaking and modifications have fine-tuned the Flanker even more. Something we may require in the future as a heavy-duty multi-role fighter. Therefore, never say never...

China only got 200 licences of J-11 from russia at 1998.
Further more,There is a limit that China can't export it without russian permission.
In this condition,It isn't realism that Pak get this stuffer from China.

Oh God--do you know that this J-11 is even bigger and heavier than a F-15?? I mean why on earth would you consider such a huge monster for PAF?? Chinese obvioulsy have no other options as there is a Western arms embargo on them. SO I don't see why would PAF want to make a huge mistake of acquiring a very different, and cumbersome platform like J11?

So a smaller nation like israël can do f15 but pak cannot ? Malay can handle flanker mkm. Indonesia has flanker. I do not understand why a nation that has lots of war experience, is part of producing jf17, k8, is ons of the largest nations, has enough cash... Which logic?

Totally agreed with Munir, few year back when we were in good book with American I suggested to have old F-15's and refurbished them that was a different argument but my point was to have long range or heavier aircraft coz we have lots of F-7 and A-5 aircraft and they have limited range or loiter time.
Lots of people are saying that twin engine aircraft doesn't suit us...hello we had B-57. F-6 and still operating A-5.
No doubt operating cosy is higher but look at the safety as well. Trust me American, Russian or European are not stupid to have twin engine aircraft.
I reckon J-11B are perfect for Paf

At-Least one squadron of 10-15 J-11B's.

1. We could use them to give cover to JF-17's (like the F-15's gave to F-16's for Osirak)
2. They will counter F-18 and Typhoon's superiority
3. They may be used in a combination with J-10's for strike missions (if for some reason JF-17 are not particulary suitable for certain missions)
4. They are the best options to compliment PN Operations
5. The amount of Hardpoints, the best option for strike bomber roles
6. In a long enduring conventional war, and absence/destruction of air-refuelers, long haul missions.

The list goes on & on.
Why would US, IAF, RSAF spend almost double for F-15 and F-18 when they could have gone for F-16 and Grippen.
Sure they have F-16 too, they didn't stay with the same type, but spent more for the twin engines, in overwhelming quantities.

Israel initially ordered 75 F-16 and 15 f-15, increased to 21, finally 25 F-15's.
Certainly they saw potential which F-16's couldn't undertake, and didn't mind spending 1/3rd more than if they had increased F-16's instead of F-15's.

RSAF were offerred Mirage, F-16, and other lot.
They went for F-15's.

All these nations have missiles in bulk, and they know what we know.
There is no logic in not going for J-11, instead it's height of stupidity comparing J-11 to JF-17 and missiles.

The next war is not going to be some 3 or 6 day war, and we can only come out on top if we have the capability to endure it, and strike from all quarters.
Probability of strikes in our land decreases with possibility of us curtailing the threat effectively.

With the new government in power, J-11 is a bad choice, even if in small numbers. The new government will most likely decrease defence budget & disapprove of expensive orders.

Some disadvantages:

• PAF/PN has never operated a twin-engined aircraft before, apart from A-5, and has little experience on such platforms.
• IAF/IN knows the flanker's weaknesses.
• Maintenance is more expensive.
• Pakistan will have to make new infrastructure to handle the aircraft (current cannot be easily modified for such a platform).

I do not think PAF could/would field the J-11B. Its too similiar to the Indian Flankers.
Look at it this way:

1.) India would have more flankers.
2.) India would know all about flanker performance.

With this in mind would Pakistan compromise themseleves by buying an expensive aircraft (Flankers are not cheap!) which the IAF will have intimate knowledge of? Doubt it. Much better to field more J-10's.

Bro, these Flankers are an indigenous, Chinese-designed, multirole version which use Chinese components, including radar, engine, and missiles. It cannot be compared to Indian Flankers. Why do you think the Chinese have them in such numbers if Indians form a threat?

China has everything in large numbers.
Some weaknesses & limitations of an aircraft always remain the same, even if the internal systems are changed (i.e. high RCS).

Hold ur horses guys,

People here want J-11 for PAF.In other thread they want Rafale for PAF.In that same thread,people want Mirage2K9 for PAF.

What is going on???

The fact is PAF is getting JF-17,F-16 and J-10(FC-20).Thats the plan till 2019,right?

People want JF-17 and J-10 to have a battle ready force free of sanctions and strings.

People want F-16 because they love the bird way to much where as others would set the bird on fire because of American bullcrap.

People like me want Rafale as a counter weight to MRCA and a heavy duty 4.5 generation fighter with AESA radar,active cancelation and supercruise.

People want J-11 as a heavy multirole bomber (personally i would want to for a PN's air wing since it would free PAF to do their job)

People also want M2K9 for the same reason as above in PN since it can make an excellent replacement for mirages is quite mordern and can host Anti ship missles at the same time defend its self against any threats.


What PAF wants is a different story.

That's an assumption.

PAF never operated Sabres, Mirage, or the F-16's before we bought them, yet got to master all of them.

Why would maintenace be a problem as such, PIA handles 4 engine aircrafts, much costlier. we don't know if maintenace would be more expensive than JF-17 or the J-10.
More expensive to maintain are the European Mirage, Raphael's, and the Typhoons.
Perhaps they'd be heavier on fuel, nothing more.

What new infrastructure?
Unless they require a different kind of runway or bunker, how much more different would they be than let's say incorporating the J-10 or the JF-17 (in terms of infrastructure) for the very first time?

Again, what new infrastructure?

Thats being realistic but then again weighing out all the options brings up good discussions for learning process.

PAF will be surely maintaining 3 engines for sure in future.The F-16 and sabre were the best options available so PAF chose them,mirage came without strings attatched and in 90's with no option available ,we just boosted its numbers.J-11 doesnt have the same story.We already have managed two aircrafts from China and they have satisfied PAF.Paf would have obviously tested J-11 but till now officially ahsnt shown interest in acquiring it.
The maintenance would be costly coz two engines for J-11 would be needed to be maintained and overhaul to start with.If u see,PAF is acquiring all single engined aircrafts for now.Thats not a rule though but still holds some thought as twin engined aircrafts have been previously flown in PAF(F-6 and its derivative A-5).U c the trend has been such that PAF aquires little number of aircraft at first and then increases that number.PAF doesnt operate aircraft that it doesnt want to grow in number e.g. F-16(starting from 12 to 111 but embargoed),J-10(36 to start with) etc
The infratsructure includes may include:
Simulations,maintaining new spare parts,transporting spare parts(the spare parts of J-11 need to be transported thru road,sea not logistics aircraft,two engines over hauling need more tech guys and double tools/equipment while in contrast JF-17 rengine can be readily replaced at the forward airbases in field conditions within two hours providing the necessary maintenance equipment is all in place.),the J-11 are giant aircraft and its wingspan is more than all the other 3 so yes the bunkers "maybe" constructed again ,Logistic support depots will have to give space to another aircraft's spare part for technical support etc

All it means is that we have options.

Be it J-11 or Rafale or Mirage-2009.

It's amazing we are having this conversation, i remember 6-7 years ago, we couldn't imagine PAF in such a state, we were talking of how to get the most out of J-7 and Mirage F-1's and stop gap solutions etc. Mashallah today we are able tot alk about capabilities more than just a defensive airforce, today we are discussing air superiority and the PAF, the two go together very fittingly.

What we want another fighter for is... (A) The strike capability (B) The air superiority

It might be an ideal situation to get J-11B in some numbers (a dedicated strike unit and for protection of the Navy)

And Rafale in some numbers as a top end high tech aircraft to take out the best threat IAF have and impose on the IAF.

Something like 30 Flankers and 30 Rafale, the only issue with that would be the fact we'd have to get spares and train engineers on them and get weapons etc, infrastructure would be quite costly, but added on 250 JF-17, ~60 F-16 and maybe similar numbers or greater numbers of the J-10, the IAF will be sh1tting it's pants.

How long have you been on this forum? You are starting to sound like a new forumer.
That is the dumbest thing I've ever read. Sorry.

Well in my opinion there is no comparsion between a J-11 and a F15 simply because SU-27 aka J-11 in China cannot match the F-15 in avionics, electronics, radars, etc. With all due respects China and Russia lag behind US and Europe in this area and I challenge anyone to prove to me that this is not the case taking into account that there has been a US/Western arms embargo on China for decades!! Sorry but I do not beleive in miracle of somehow Chinese became so intelligent that they are matching US in the area.

PAF at the moment has the luxury of choosing its avionics systems from anywhere in the world and it is doing so with JF-17 and perhaps J-10 --so why should PAF waste its time and energy on such a product as J-11???

It does not make sense at all specially taking into account that PAF is better off just concentrating on the Naval variant of JF-17 or J-10!!

Every time I turn on the TV, I hear anti-Musharraf leaders or new government officials talking about how PML-Q increased defence budget while the people were deprived. And I am certain that when these corrupt goons have total control of the government & country, they will try their best to weaken the army (institution), which will have an adverse affect on military developments as well.


Sabre, Mirage, F-16 are all single-engined aircrafts. How does J-11 fit in here?
It has nothing to do with mastering the platform. The fact is that IAF has already mastered the flankers! India knows it's weaknesses.


It is quite illogical to compare a commercial airliner which has over a billion dollars annual turnover to a defence institution which produces little to no revenues at all.


Refer to GreenBeret's post or Google how overhaul & maintenance is done. You just can't put 2 totally different types of platforms in the same overhaul facility, and expect to maintain both at the same time. By new infrastructure, I meant another set of facilities will have to be established, and made specifically to meet that one platform's specifications. If the platform is somewhat similar to its predecessor, then you may be able to modify the old infrastructure instead of building a new one (i.e: J-10 may be able to overhaul at the F-16's facilities; Jf-17 on F-7's).
J-11 is not similar to any PAF platform in any way, and it also uses two engines. Therefore, it will require new facilities to be built, and maintenance will be more expensive due to the double engines.

That was in response to your statement that we never operated twin engines before, hence, we had never operated Sabres or F-16's before we went for them.

It will be illogical if we were to compare costs and revenue.
Not illogical, if you're saying maintenance of twins, for which I said, PIA does it, further meaning, we have the capability to, no big deal.

And about our present bunkers, USAF F-15 & 18 fit in those very cosily, no need to rebuild new ones for J-11's.

when did USN fly F-18 and USAF fly F-15 from PAF bases? i think they flew transport choppers and logistics aircraft mostly.The F-18's were flown from aircraft carrier and i dont think that F-15 were used in Afghanistan.

Saamp meant that in terms of funding of PAF and PIA only.Also PIA has to use multi engined aircraft,whereas PAF has an option and currently the trend its following is going for single engined aircraft.

No he was talking (earlier posts) in terms of infrastructure and maintenance.
Revenue/Expenses were incorporated after my statement.

USAF were operating from our bases, can't say the same for now.

I am against the induction of Russian stuff in Pak military!!

This comment does not make sense wen you consider thast PAF next majot warplane is JF17 flown by russian engine.

Also you have MI17. & WANT IL76 transport planes and refullers. all Russian.

Inaddition i AGREE only really big military budgets can handle the cost of buying and maintaining twin engined fighters.

For PAF small single engined low cost is they only way. PAF doctrine is purely defensive not geared to offensive war which twin engines become far more potent be it on land sea or air.

Flankers and F15 & F18 operate upto 1000 miles radius carry huge radars and have between 8 to 12 hardpoints.

Sp what of they have chinese components and missiles? The airframe is the same. Its handling and turning rates and manuverability will be very similiar to the flankers India operate. India will know the most effective way to engage the plane in a Dog Fight. India and Pakistan have a border with eachother. How many fights do you think will be decided by dogfighting? So many......

Also comparisson with the Indian Flankers is something I am not getting into. If you feel that they PLAAF and IAF flankers are not even comparable, then thats your opinion. I think theyare very comparable.

As for having them in such numbers. AT the time when the Chinese got the Su-27 (J-11) it was the best they could get. PERIOD. There was no better plane for them to realistically buy.... As for the number, China needs a large amount. Its got a big airspace to defend bro.

I think the purpose of the J-11 purchase was mainly considered with Taiwan in mind.....

PAF will focus on the J-10 and Jh-17 just like they are doing now. It is the best solution for them and in their best intrests.

we can create infrastructure for J10 but cannot for J11B. i find it hard to believe. is it going to be that difficult that adding another engine on a aircraft will make it impossible for PAF to maintain them.... This is very lame, very lame reasoning from most of the forumer, with all due respect...

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