Full Version: Future Submarine Program
Frankly speaking, I don't think Pakistan will be ordering U214...even the PML-Q dominated Senate Committee thinks the Germans are offering an "arrogant deal", so I doubt PPP will be any easier on the issue. However there are other possibilities...for one we may procure a Chinese design such as the Yuan Class SSK. The other possibility might be a very long shot...but the Turks might develop their own next-generation concept alongside their MILGEM and TF-100 & 2000 concepts. Last I heard the Turks want to use a foreign design like U214 as a basis, but they have been on an indigenous-centric drive - so this could change in the future.
Ironically 214 has turned to be main contender for India's next line of subs. Any way Turkey will take a lot of time to develop its owns sub and only option in terms of price is the Chinese Yuan class. Ya when buying Chinese subs , the numbers should help as they are much cheaper to the western stuff , so is the technology.
wait and watch ...
we can go to french anytime we want...
we can go to french anytime we want...
its the fuel cell technology and the electronics that the german subs come with which give them an edge over french products
having french and german subs will allows us to get similar trainig to the indians and know how their crews think, sort of
having french and german subs will allows us to get similar trainig to the indians and know how their crews think, sort of
QUOTE(ISI2003 @ Jun 15 2008, 11:19 PM) 
its the fuel cell technology and the electronics that the german subs come with which give them an edge over french products
having french and german subs will allows us to get similar trainig to the indians and know how their crews think, sort of
having french and german subs will allows us to get similar trainig to the indians and know how their crews think, sort of
I don't think it will take much time for the French to mimic German technology if Pakistan really insisted, after all we have deeper ties with DCN, kind of like Ericsson developing ground search modes for our AWACS upon our request.
QUOTE(Dilpakistani @ Jun 16 2008, 09:12 AM)
wait and watch ...
we can go to french anytime we want...
we can go to french anytime we want...
Marlin is always a option.
.
QUOTE(JET_Flash @ Jun 16 2008, 10:18 AM)
Marlin is always a option. .
.guys can anyone answer this question?
Why is pakistan not developing Agosta 90B when we have already got TOT from French?
The 214 is still on the cards as the Navy favours it....Forget the stupid civilians who don't know jack.
QUOTE(maverick1977 @ Jun 17 2008, 12:27 AM)
guys can anyone answer this question?
Why is pakistan not developing Agosta 90B when we have already got TOT from French?
Why is pakistan not developing Agosta 90B when we have already got TOT from French?
From what i understand is that Agosta 90B is getting outdated in terms of newer platforms like Scorpene and U 214. Also the ToT does not mean the complete transfer. The vital technology like topedotubes and other subsytems are french secrets they still may not be willing to share.
QUOTE(JET_Flash @ Jun 16 2008, 01:10 PM)
From what i understand is that Agosta 90B is getting outdated in terms of newer platforms like Scorpene and U 214. Also the ToT does not mean the complete transfer. The vital technology like topedotubes and other subsytems are french secrets they still may not be willing to share.
we are so far behind..... i envy germans despite all sanctions, they created worlds mightiest and strongest army with latest technology....their industry was in shambles and they worked on it to make it the best in the world...
atleast something is better than nothing. we should get more experience on how to make these systems on our own.. wont u agree making a sub with given french tech will give pakistan KESW a better chance of developing a better one.....
we should procure the u-214 and develop our own sub design (and order 3) based on the best of the two, plus some chinese input
we could then offer the indigenous design for export
we could then offer the indigenous design for export
Mark! don't worry final word will come from NAVY not senate as NAVY is final entity who will use this platform. I think one good presentation will do the job.
Many technical questions,
simple , are we going to get u214 or not ,
or
a new technology ?
simple , are we going to get u214 or not ,
or
a new technology ?
QUOTE(Mark Sien @ Jun 15 2008, 09:04 PM)
Frankly speaking, I don't think Pakistan will be ordering U214...even the PML-Q dominated Senate Committee thinks the Germans are offering an "arrogant deal", so I doubt PPP will be any easier on the issue. However there are other possibilities...for one we may procure a Chinese design such as the Yuan Class SSK. The other possibility might be a very long shot...but the Turks might develop their own next-generation concept alongside their MILGEM and TF-100 & 2000 concepts. Last I heard the Turks want to use a foreign design like U214 as a basis, but they have been on an indigenous-centric drive - so this could change in the future.
it al now depends on who can pay zardari the most, as commision for purchasing their subs.....good old days...
Hell ! I see the americans/israelis are trying to prevent pakistan from getting the german boats.
The U214 is important because with a larger deal there is a possibility of getting access to the U212 technology. The U212A is probably the world's best and stealthiest conventional submarine, and even the israelis went for a diesel powered derivative of the U212 over nuclear powered american boats. This boat outperforms anything the indians the indians have currently or might acquire in the future from russia. It's so advanced that the germans are not willing to export it, and instead offer the lesser capable U214.
I think it is critical that we place an order for at least 4-6 boats with ToT, and negotiate for a more capable variant of the U214 (especially with larger 650mm torpedo tubes, deeper diving depth and quieter engines) that will make it easier to mate the Babur underwater variant on them.
The indians might buy the U214 just to keep it away from pakistan.
The U214 is important because with a larger deal there is a possibility of getting access to the U212 technology. The U212A is probably the world's best and stealthiest conventional submarine, and even the israelis went for a diesel powered derivative of the U212 over nuclear powered american boats. This boat outperforms anything the indians the indians have currently or might acquire in the future from russia. It's so advanced that the germans are not willing to export it, and instead offer the lesser capable U214.
I think it is critical that we place an order for at least 4-6 boats with ToT, and negotiate for a more capable variant of the U214 (especially with larger 650mm torpedo tubes, deeper diving depth and quieter engines) that will make it easier to mate the Babur underwater variant on them.
The indians might buy the U214 just to keep it away from pakistan.
QUOTE(Mark Sien @ Jun 15 2008, 04:04 PM)
Frankly speaking, I don't think Pakistan will be ordering U214...even the PML-Q dominated Senate Committee thinks the Germans are offering an "arrogant deal", so I doubt PPP will be any easier on the issue. However there are other possibilities...for one we may procure a Chinese design such as the Yuan Class SSK. The other possibility might be a very long shot...but the Turks might develop their own next-generation concept alongside their MILGEM and TF-100 & 2000 concepts. Last I heard the Turks want to use a foreign design like U214 as a basis, but they have been on an indigenous-centric drive - so this could change in the future.
Mark, why do u think our politicians believe that the Germans are offering an 'arrogant' deal??...do they have any grounds?!
What good are weapons when they will never be used.
India has issued for a request for purchase of 6 numbers of submarines. Germans will be closely looking at the numbers too.
Just like their hawk deal.It will take a decade before anything happens.
There was interesting news about the french offer to Indian Submarine program . Looks like the Marlin is in offer to India with some sort of new missile , probably BrahMos.
Navy eyes new submarines for blue-water capability
Link
New Delhi: The Indian Navy has set the ball rolling for acquisition of new warships and submarines.
India has made it clear that it wants more muscle at sea and has kick-started the process of acquiring six new hunter-killer submarines and seven new frigates.
Of particular significance is its decision to go in for a new line of submarines, which will for the first time give India an assured capability to attack targets on land from under the sea.
Request for information have recently been issued to the French DCNS, Spanish Navantia, Russian Rubin and German HDW.
"It is a new submarine. It is not the Scorpene and it is a bigger submarine with specific features," Alain Fougeron, Executive VP, DCNS says about its new submarines.
The key differentiator from its existing fleet of 16 submarines will be a new class of missiles, which will establish India as the leading naval power in the region.
"The missile component of the Submarine weapon is very important and it should be very powerful," Andrey V Efimov, Manager, Rubin Design Bureau, says.
By considering four options India has sent a message that it wants to diversify its weapons procurement beyond traditional arms supplier Russia.
Its 30-year submarine building programme had envisaged a Russian line of Amur submarines beside the French Scorpene for which India signed up in 2005.
But now the Amur is not a certainty even though the Russians claim it is superior.
"Its capable of providing salvos for different targets," Efimov says about Amur submarines.
The other big decision is to approach the US for partnership for building seven frigates as part of the Indian Navy's Project 17A.
Russians and Europeans are also in the fray for the project.
With top-of-the-line submarines and warships, India hopes to establish more strength at sea.
In the changed circumstances, India realises that power projection in the future will not be done by its foot soldiers but by its strategic forces.
Navy eyes new submarines for blue-water capability
Link
New Delhi: The Indian Navy has set the ball rolling for acquisition of new warships and submarines.
India has made it clear that it wants more muscle at sea and has kick-started the process of acquiring six new hunter-killer submarines and seven new frigates.
Of particular significance is its decision to go in for a new line of submarines, which will for the first time give India an assured capability to attack targets on land from under the sea.
Request for information have recently been issued to the French DCNS, Spanish Navantia, Russian Rubin and German HDW.
"It is a new submarine. It is not the Scorpene and it is a bigger submarine with specific features," Alain Fougeron, Executive VP, DCNS says about its new submarines.
The key differentiator from its existing fleet of 16 submarines will be a new class of missiles, which will establish India as the leading naval power in the region.
"The missile component of the Submarine weapon is very important and it should be very powerful," Andrey V Efimov, Manager, Rubin Design Bureau, says.
By considering four options India has sent a message that it wants to diversify its weapons procurement beyond traditional arms supplier Russia.
Its 30-year submarine building programme had envisaged a Russian line of Amur submarines beside the French Scorpene for which India signed up in 2005.
But now the Amur is not a certainty even though the Russians claim it is superior.
"Its capable of providing salvos for different targets," Efimov says about Amur submarines.
The other big decision is to approach the US for partnership for building seven frigates as part of the Indian Navy's Project 17A.
Russians and Europeans are also in the fray for the project.
With top-of-the-line submarines and warships, India hopes to establish more strength at sea.
In the changed circumstances, India realises that power projection in the future will not be done by its foot soldiers but by its strategic forces.
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