After the jf-17 project shouldn't we be thinking about the next project?

One might be a CAS aircraft based on the k-8. The k-8 cannot do the job because it is underpowered (3,000 lb thrust).

How about an aircraft based on the k-8 but like the alpha jet; twin engined (for survivability) with about 6,000lb thrust. It will not be too great a jump for pakistani engineers, and all the work must be indigenous. The chinese ws-13, or a Ukrainian engine can be used. Apart from PAF, it can be marketed to countries which operate the k-8.

Viewing size of industry timely delivery,maintainence and upgrades of JF-17s is a mighty task as well. Later they can
try J-10 or J-11 as well .

I understand, but firstly a new CAS aircraft is needed, and we are all tired of seeing large amounts of money leaving the country to create jobs and profits abroad.

Secondly, this is about developing the aircraft industry, exporting aircraft will hopefully make the aeonautical industry self-financing.

This is about expanding the industry and maintaining momentum.

Technologically it is a small jump.

Well PAC/PAF gained some productive experience in JF-17 as it did participate in the development process...so it wasn't a simple buy for tech-transfer deal. It is likely that the next locally produced fighter will follow a similar pattern where PAC/PAF participate in the development process of a joint-venture fighter.

why not start with building engines? or is it too much to ask?

like Moon to Mars , we should think towards better , deadly, powerfull.
I will feel proud, when we will Inshah Allah successded making a F-22A Raptor ?

Engines are the most superior and highly advanced mechanical parts of an aircraft. if you can make good engines then you can also send a man to the moon.

PAC will definately research massive upgrades of JF-17s, once the block 52s arrive, we will have a very advance platform to get know how and hence JF-17 can be made a truely 4th generation fighter.

Drops make a sea, and drops cut the stone in two halves. So we should move with a speed which we may overcome in the times of need.

The PAC is involved in from Mashak basic trainer to K-8 primary training jet and now JF-17 as front line combat aircraft, i think it should branch out to include a transport aircraft and utility helicopters, apart from countrie's own requirements, there is a world demand for convinent mode of supply aircrafts!

Survivor R, you make a good point, I want to open a seperate thread for that topic.


Sunny92, you hit the nail on thr head. I think it is time that the industry stopped thinking of itself as only a provider of the air force, but think of itself and its global marketing role.

So far we haven't designed a single aircraft.

While there has been endless talk ( rightly) of the jf-17, nobody seems to mention the k-8. Where do we go with the k-8?

One option is to make a single seat version (ie greater fuel capacity) and market that. While that will definitely have a market among some countries (like the hawk 2000) I see no role for that in the PAF. On the other hand, there is definitely a need for a CAS aircraft. How do we fulfill that? Shouldn't we use this need to expand the industry?

Increasingly we have to design and market aircraft, by neccessity at the lower end of the market initially, to establish a foothold in the world aircraft industry.

The long term aim can only be to make the industry one of the world's top 5, and every item we design and build ourselves brings us closer to that aim.

You are think way too far ahead. Although it is good to think ahead, but plans have to be reasonable, as in attainable for them to work. You can only set a goal- (For example, as you mentioned a CAS a/c based on K-8)- when you have the human and monetary capital to justify that kind of investment, and of course there has to be a need. None of which is there at the moment.
The industry is in its very early stages right now this is a lot to expect from them.
Similarly with developing engines and tranport aircraft or helicopters we dont have the domestic need that would justify spending money on RnD or spending money setting up facilities for production.
We can clearly see from our neighbour to the east that if you take giant leaps, you are likely to loose your footing and fall face first.
I think the PAF and PAC are being very wise and taking very carefull and calculated steps to make sure they develop the human capital first before they make a move that is going to cost them lots of time and money, both of which we cant afford to waste.
Also, we havent even started selling JF 17s yet--lets build a customer base before we start developing and pitching products to countries all over the wolrd. We have to think only about domestic needs for now, exports are a luxury, we cant aim for that, at least not yet.




I agree with Mark any new forays in to the Aviation industry need to be done on a JV basis. There is no other way to do it. I dont think Pakistan will be in a position to develop something localy for at least another 20-25 years.

Realistically i see them working on;

- Upgrading JF-17... this is a logical step JF-17 isn't going to stop here, we are going to have better variants, one is already in the pipeline, we should be looking at honing our own abilities on this platform rather than learning to fit plugins.

- J-10.. this could include assembling it, learning to overhaul it, perhaps modifiying it and customizing it to our needs.

- Working with the Chinese on JXX/J-12/J-14... whatever the stealth fighter is called. We may not be able to contribute too much, but we should certainly be working towards observing and learning for the Chinese engineers and designers.

What I'd like to see;

- Work on a LAC/CAS fighter. We could look to take the K-8 and build on that, or we could look to perhaps work on an engine or electronic suites for it, perhaps even airframe modification. We have a basic aircraft, it doesn't have to be too high-tech, it should be a good learning curve for our industry.

Essentially in 25 years time i want to see us building our own aircraft that is update with others in the market at that time. It's ambitious but achievable.

Manufacturing a prototype is one thing, but marketing and mass producing is a whole different ball game. The defence industry is a very competitive and insecure market. Even countries like Russia and the US that have heaps of experience are struggling to attain the demands of their respective air forces, let alone the customers. We've to realize that both Pakistan and China are still emerging countries as far as their aviation industry is concerned. Whatever they've managed to achieve in such a short time span is simply a remarkable accomplishment which deserves full credit. Also, there's no doubt that the JF-17 has huge export potential. The fact that countries are showing genuine interest and placing orders is enough indication.

Pakistan needs to address its own needs first though. It has to build and expand the infra in order to speed up the production process over the years. Whether that's even going to happen is a big question mark. Let's not consider 250-300 to be an insignificant number. Deadlines have to be met. The whole undertaking costs a lot of time, money and other resources which are scarce. Secondly, the fighters have to be inducted into different squadrons and the pilots trained. Thirdly, the JF-17 has to pass through various vigorous tests and prove its worth on the battlefield. The JF-17 still has to undergo many phases before it can take off to the skies and be considered an effective and a reliable aircraft. Various radars and weaponry have to be integrated, tested etc. The same goes for improved Chinese/Russian engines that have to be integrated and tested. It has to perform in various missions and meet the requirements. Only then can Pakistan even begin to consider producing and exporting the Thunder overseas. It's a very time consuming and expensive activity. Let's not even begin about other projects... We've to remain realistic and progress gradually.

Alhamdulillah the good news is that Pakistan is on track! We can be very proud of the achievements so far. It's a huge success story. Despite interference from unfriendly countries the project is advancing very smoothly.

platinum, I think we are in agreement on the cas/k-8 idea.

Adil, we have a fundamental difference. You regard exports as a luxury; I am saying they are essential because they will finance the industry, the more exports the better.

As regards human resources, if we at present cannot adapt an aircraft we helped build several years ago, then it doesn't say much for our learning capacity. I say again, it is a small technological jump. This is why we don't have to have a partner for this.


Who wants to see a CAS aircraft imported from abroad when all the pieces are here?

^^ Bro, PAF should first and foremost concentrate on the JF-17 project (J-10 and J-XX in the long-term). All energy and resources should be fully dedicated to this purpose. I don't think that the modification of the K-8 will have any added benefit. Why take a leap backward and reinvent the wheel when we already posses the infra for producing a much more sophisticated platform than K-8? Besides, I also don't understand how one can possibly integrate the WS-13 on the K-8? The airframe will have to be heavily modified. A painstakingly and costly affair if at all achievable... Additionally, the learning curve will be very minimal. Predominantly, the JF-17 project will benefit Pakistan's aviation industry and ambitions in the long run. We should be aiming towards producing, improving and upgrading all parts (including WS-13 engine) of the fighter in house. That would be most beneficial and a challenge in itself. The JF-17 is a proven concept and something that Pakistan should build upon. In other words, it should form the basis of our aeronautical industry for a futuristic indigenous fighter project. I'm sure there are tons of other more realistic and cost-effective alternatives for suitable CAS aircraft. Whether we should be aiming for producing such an aircraft indigenously is a healthy debate.

IMO PAC & PAF should concentrate on the manufacture of aircraft, but push the private industry into the R&D portion of the aircraft. This could start with JF-17 upgrades, I think joint military-private ventures should be set up to formulate what JF-17 would need and how to get it in the future. Eventually in the long-term I see a definite 5th generation fighter development.

I think our most immediate concern should be a full development of "independent- no human intervention needed", low flying, highly manuverable, transonic UAV's, that can be data linked to Chinese or Swedish Awacs, and can carry BVRAAMs. We already have various fragments of these technolgies scattered across Karma and Nescom, while the BVRAAMs such as SD-10s or T-Darters already incorporate technologies which allow them to home in on aircraft on their own, that is once the initial guidance is over, which essentially takes place through a "datalinking of sorts" between the missile and the aircraft's radar. These features will easily direct us towards implementing various basic stealth techniques, and increase PAF's potency.

If i may say so myself the K8 is a beautiful aircraft for the Basic Flying Training. Yes i agree it may be under powered by abt 3000 lbs of thrust but gentlemen remember the engine used in the K8 is highly stable. TFE-731-2a2a is a highly powerful engine that can do wonders if used properly

Jamal Bhai, Exports are a luxury for now!!! I agree that they will finanace the industry, but for now we have to finanace it ourselves and bare any risks invloved. The industry is not mature enough yet. If, god-forbid, we should fail in delivering something that we have promised it would give the industry a bad name and one bad experience has a tendancy of staying in the mind of the customer. It's very hard to erase.
All I am saying is we need to be very confident before we take any major steps. Pakistan's industry is still learning and will be for some time to come, so any developments would require assistance (for now).

Babur, my mistake. I didn't mean the ws-13, but the engine the chinese are using for their K-8's. Two of those together will give about 6,000 ib of thrust. That's the same as the alpha jet, or the famous A-4 skyhawk.

The export market will perfer the american engine, but the way things are going I would be happier with the chinese engine, at least for the PAF version.

Ofcourse it will be a single seat aircraft, increasing fuel capacity.

Can someone mention any other aircraft that can fulfill the CAS role?

kids.........

I know how much you want to soup up the jf-17 to make it look like raptor but the grim reality is that the future is very limited for this plane. dont be expecting it to last long. we will soon be moving away from jf17.

we will be making jf for at the most 10 years and will be done with it, opening the line only for export.

Now j10 is something that will stay long long long time. bigger frame will allow lot more upgrades and lot more possibilities.

^^ Let's first get all of the planned JF-17s... There has been so much talk about the improved/advanced JF-17 with major changes to the airframe, use of composite, better engines/radars etc. We haven't even got a few squadrons of the JF-17 yet. This project is still in child shoes. I wouldn't give up on the JF-17 after so much promise. It has massive growth potential considering the pace at which PAF will be inducting them over the years. Let's face it, the J-10 is something for the future and also in development stages. Besides, like it or not but cost will always be an issue with the J-10. The JF-17 are there for the numbers and the J-10/F-16 to complement quality.

there are couple of problems. jf is good for what is it intended for i.e. to be used with awacs. putting in aesa in jf will need a new frame. and think a little bit ahead and you will realize that the shelf life of jf for paf is no longer than the life of mig 21 or if they ever go with lca.

If india scrap lca and we have to keep the jf to take care of mig 21s then we wont need any upgrade.

if india goes with lca then we gonna be looking at some upgrades.

if india scraps lca and gets some western fighter then we have no choice but to go with more of j10 and less of jf.

JF-17 won't need a new frame for an AESA radar and it will be around for a fairly long time.

Uncle Sam will never give us permission to build plane engines so it is too much to ask.

If we can keep an atomic bomb then we can also build engines. And btw Uncle Sam is now no more. Look forward to Obama!!

lol, a black uncle sam ?

While it is very commendable to have such a goal but it is very unlikely to happen for two reasons:

1. Developing a modern fighter will cost billions of dollars and Pakistan just does not have the money. China is looking to spend billions of dollars on developing the J-XX fighter.
2. An industrial base is required that will allow the manufacture of airframe, engines, missiles and electronics. Only countries like the US, France, Russia and now China have the full spectrum of capabilities in all these areas.

Pakistan would be much better off specialising in some key areas such as electronics and striving to reach world-class in select areas. It can of course also produce somewhat low tech fighters as a way to gain some expereince in this field.

People seem to be replying to other posts.

1.Nobody is suggesting building a new fighter. The K-8 was not an expensive project. To upgrade, I mean upgrade, let me clarify, upgrade, the existing K-8 plane will be a lot cheaper then the initial project.


2. We don't have to make every single part of the new upgraded aircraft. Just like now when not every single part of the K-8 entering the PAF is made in pakistan.

Turkey to upgrade Pakistani F-16s as US sanctions ease

Parallel to the easing of long-standing sanctions against Pakistan by the US, Turkey has begun to increase defense industry relations with this country, starting with a plan to upgrade the US-made Lockheed Martin F-16 fighters in the inventory of the Pakistani Air Force.

Pakistani and US sources told Today’s Zaman that around 36 Pakistani Block 15 (oldest version) F-16 A/Bs will be upgraded by the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAİ). The Pakistani F-16s will receive a mid-life upgrade that primarily involves replacement of avionics and structural modifications bringing them close to Block 40 standards. The US recently gave permission for these upgrades. Belgium’s SABCA and Netherlands’ Fokker were also bidders in the tender for the upgrade of the Pakistani F-16s. But the Turkish option gained prominence when Islamabad used its preference in favor of Turkey, Turkish defense industry sources said.

Under the deal, two or three Pakistani F-16s are expected to be upgraded at the TAI facilities, while the remaining F-16s will be upgraded in Pakistan, either at the Sargodhi F-16 base in Punjab or in Kamra, around 50 kilometers outside of Islabamad, at the Pac-Kamra aircraft factory.

Despite close political ties between the two countries, Turkish-Pakistani defense industry relations have not grown, due mainly to restrictions on US-made weapons in the Turkish military's inventory requiring Washington's permission for sales to and upgrades for third countries. Meanwhile, the US has completed a delivery of 14 second-hand F-16s to Pakistan under a foreign military sales deal signed in 2005.

New deals with Pakistan

Local defense contractor Aselsan has long been a strategic partner of Islamabad for the production of army field radios at a military facility in Pakistan.

Aselsan will also provide the Pakistani navy with four gyro-stabilized 25 millimeter guns under a deal signed almost a month ago.

Meanwhile, local contractor Havelsan sold Pakistan a $28 million tactical simulated range Electronic Warfare (EW) system to deter surface-to-air threats and for use in electronic warfare. Turkey and Pakistan earlier agreed to cooperate in research and development on a broad range of defense projects, including the joint production of cluster bombs. There have been ongoing talks on the progress of cooperation in various areas.

Some of the areas identified as potential fields for cooperation in defense, research, technology and production include:

Nuclear, biological and chemical detection, protection and decontamination equipment produced in Turkey

81 millimeter mortar ammunition

Production of cluster bombs with 300 to 400 bomblets each for different missions

Production of precision-guided munitions

Detection systems for use against improvised explosive devices

Precision-guided bomblets for conventional munitions

Cooperation in the sale and production of 122 millimeter short-range and long-range multiple rocket launcher ammunition. Turkey's Roketsan and the Turkish Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation (MKEK) are proposing sales and joint production with Pakistan.

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar...amp;link=149684

Excellent news.

Good news.
Both countries defense establishments are working greatly.
Lot of things to share, specially electronic as Turkey has access to western technologies. They are expanding in lot of areas , good for Pakistan.