While we are making aircraft, we as yet have taken no steps to produce an engine. Everybody knows it's essential. We also know the experience of our neighbours, and how difficult it is. So here is an idea.

We have gone as far in rebuiding and maintaining two engines; the Atar-9c of the mirage, and the wp-6 of the mig-19/A-5.

The Atar was finalised in 1957 and has powered many french aircraft. Since then there has been no further technological input.The toyota engine in your car now is more modern than this engine. It is an engine that our engineers know inside out.

A project to upgrade this engine will not be a difficult task. Think of all the technical advances there have been in the last 50 years; pumps, compressors, computer controlled sub components etc. All of these can be bought off the shelf.

The engine has about 14,000 ib thrust, increasing the thrust and fuel efficiency will be the main result. It will become a 'pakistani' engine when one of two things happen; either the new engine is so different from the old that the french can no longer claim it as their own, or we pay a licence fee to the french.

This will provide our engineers with valuable experience; and if fitted to the mirage aircraft enhance thie performance and range. It will provide the country with the safety of domestic engine.

I know the ws-13 is coming ( I assume tot and in country production), but this will be a 'pakistani' engine and an extra guarantee.

The same can be done with the wp-6, although with 7,000 lb thrust it will have other roles.

This will be the industry's first foothold into the aeronautical engine market.

Before anybody talks about the importance of the jf-17 project, I am not advocating slowing it down. The engine project can be a 'back burner' project.

A step has to be taken, no matter how small, in domestic engine development.

What are engines made from brother? Steel? Iron? Brass? Nickel? Copper?

What are the temperatures inside engines? 100 degrees celcius? 1000 degress celcius? 10,000 degrees celcius?

What burns best in fighter jet engines? Diesel? Petrol? kerosene? LPG?

Brother engines are made out of alloys, mixtures of metals altered and mixed to be able to be extremely light yet extremely strong and not melt in extreme heat. The solder used to weld the peices together with has got to be the same kinda things, massively heat proof. What are the temperatures, i don't know bro. I know they use kerosene, but i doubt it's the same stuff sold in pressurised containers to industry.

What's the point of my ramble? The point is there are other base industries, sciences that we must understand and excel in before we can think about making engines. If we cannot make an engine from the minerals in our own earth, essentially we are assembling it. You cannot lead a market, until you know it's every secret. Nobody is born with that knowledge but you must have people in your nation with that knowledge so that you can use them to greater extent in the future.

We need to start somewhere. I know we have the capability for overhaul of most jet engines. At least get some help from the Chinese.

There's no need to reinvent the wheel like the Indians do.

did you know the R&D for the heat shield on the nasa X-38 re entry vehicle was done in Pakistan?

Heat shield is something else but it can help us in building better warhead re entry vehicle.

Errrrr I believe it was Germany that designed the heat shield for the X-38.

Did anyone know that tails of Boeing are developed in Karachi

engine production is most diffucult one..
look even experianced russian engines lifetime,it is so short if you compare with western one.
chinese engines has much shorter life..

i think pakistan-malesia-turkey should make joint -venture and start to build engine (turkey has a lot of experiance
as already supplying some important parts of f-16 engines and also got significiant contract for JFS engines)

Not exactly, The TuAF F-16s are powered by either P&W engines or GEs and these engines are directly shipped from their parent company. Turks hove no experience in engines. TuAF industries just recieved a technology transfer from US in order to manufacture 100s of F-16s by them selves. The engines, softwares and ordanance is shipped directly from US.

Very good point brother. These three countries and also KSA. I hope one day such a JV will be reality.

There were some reports indicating that Boeing Co. has signed an agreement with PAC Kamra to manufacture parts of Boeing 777s. And even they have purchased some parts worth of $100 Million. PAC Kamra was also granted the lisence of quality production.

dont forget the engine overhauling of c130. nothing something very big but still.

Yeah we have also overhauled K-8s, F-6s, F-7s and Mirages.

I'm not saying we re-invent the wheel (or engine in this case), what I'm saying is, to make something better than what we have, we must have some level of R&D experience. I don't think we have that in Pakistan. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The PAF has not concentrated on platform development and, at present, it 'should not'. This is not because they do not have the expertise, which is quite a weird thing to say, but because they do not have the pre-requisite industry support to make such an effort commercially viable. I mean, you can design the required engines and also do preliminary soft tests.
However, then PAF would have to outsource complete testing, manufacture of equipment and also support manufacturing. All in all you might end up with a 4th gen fighter with a 5th gen price tag, and a decade behind.

What countries like Pakistan need to invest in, which they already have been, is in support services and non-platform technologies (sub-systems) (Israel route). Kamra is a good example. Pakistan needs to be in a position to "amend" platform designs to add on sub-systems that are either manufactured in Pakistan or Pakistan has some say in developing.

Once Pakistan's commercial industrial output is able to cope with the burden, small steps...baby steps can be made into platform manufacture. For the moment reduced assembly is sufficient.

The trouble with Pakistan, and many other Muslim countries, is that the commercial industry is un-organised and un-structured, which results in very little motivation for commercial enterprises to go for long term high investment businesses. There are the absence of institutional investing houses and the general leakage (corrupt off-set) of government and private funds to tackle as well.

If the industry was structured better, within about two decades Pakistan could field its first in house jet trainer specific to its requirements. In the absence of such an industrial reform, the present strategy is the best.

(Compare the graduating curve from the overhaul of F-6s, to Mirages and then Mushaaq, K-8 and now JF-17… there is a steady gain in expertise of non-platform involvement of Pakistan).



HESA had floated the idea of increased co-operation with PTDI, CTRM and TUSAS (TEI) for military transport aircraft. This is a good move as there is almost complete redundancy of effort amongst the three major companies. Due to Turkey's less than cordial treatment by its NATO allies in the last procurement requests, it seems likely that at least CTRM and PTDI would be asked to join in long term co-operation. The wild card in all of this, are the Saudis who are investing heavily in all three countries as well as at home and Jebel Ali. EADS has been actively pushing these countries to co-operate, which would be good for EADS commercially and 'I'ADS is not in the making, but EADS is hoping some steps will be taken to start the journey.

Pakistan can and should play a minor role in any such co-operation as it would benefit the fledgling aerospace industry. Most people underestimate what Turkey, Iran and Indonesia are capable of. The trouble is that there individual procurements do not justify comparatively large investments. With collective procurement, there is a considerable opportunity to combine with EU, USA, Russia, Brazil and China on many projects.

completely wrong...
moreover you dont know anything about TEI (NOT TUAF) participation in JFS F136 engine.
in the meantime turkey producing already turboprop engines and will sooner test turboshaft engines for UAV locally(developed by TEI .).

just short info about TEI abilities.



TEI and GE Aviation make Turkey an Advance Technology Base: Turkiye Technology Center is established

In Turkiye Technology Center (TTC) which will be realized in the year 2008 as an engineering alliance, TEI and GE engineers will design and develop technology for all GE Aviation’s commercial and military aircraft engines.

Ankara, Nov. 16, 2007 – Tusas Engine Industries Inc. (TEI) and GE Aviation (USA), announced the establishment of the mutual engineering initiative Turkiye Technology Center (TTC), that will position Turkey as an advance technology center, with a signing ceremony. In the ceremony which was realized with attendances of Mr. Vecdi Gonul -Minister of National Defense, Mr. Murat Bayar – Undersecretary for Defense Industries, TEI and GE’s top level officials were also present.

In TTC which will be established in Istanbul Gebze Free Zone, initially 55 engineers and in near future 240 engineers will be employed. Within TTC, the employed engineers from GEMTC (GE Maramara Technology Center, GE Aviation’s Engineering Center in Free Zone) and TEI, will design and develop technology for commercial and military aircraft engines.

Through TTC, which is based on the TEI-GE cooperation success in F136 Engine Project which is developed for Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) by GE-Rolls-Royce Fighter Engine Team, it is targeted to strengthen TEI’s strategic partnership with GE. Under the scope of this project, which will be a milestone regarding Turkish Aviation Industry’s enhancement and R&D activities, TEI will play an important role also in design and development of new technologies for GE Aviation’s all commercial and military engine components. New founded engineering, production and repair technology capabilities, by courtesy of TTC, will carry TEI to a more important place as a design and technology developing partner rather than being a critical material producer to GE Aviation and engine service subcontractor.

Long term relation of GE and TEI, has started in 1985 with the production, assembly and test of F110 engines which are used in F-16 aircrafts which are in Turkish Air Forces’ fleet. In TEI’s Eskisehir plant, many complex parts for the most developed aircraft engines are produced including important parts of F136 engine which is used in JSF.

Excellent point bro. I think WS-13 or even better the WS-10A in the future should form the basis since we can get the ToT from our Chinese brothers. That's the most sophisticated piece of engine we will have with know-how in our inventory. Once we hopefully start producing these engines locally doors will open for an indigenous project... However, an engine JV project with Malaysia, Turkey, KSA and possibly China should definitely be considered in the future. Without a doubt... This will even open doors for many other JVs. Funding isn't the problem considering the number of countries that will be participating. It's a matter of willingness and bundling all minds together. I've a strong hunch that such a project isn't far off. It only makes sense to combine all resources and expertise under one consortium with friendly nations.

agree fully..
development/production of engine is so expensive for single country but all together(at least PAKISTAN,KSA,TURKEY,MALESIA) not big problem..
in such consortium ,there will be no finance problem and also all knowledge will be put on desk and development will take less time..
muslim nations are sleeping evenif millions of muslim recently killed by infidels and they still continue to kill muslims but we are still in deep sleep..
as single country we may be easy target but together we are not easy target thats why i beg,insallah, we will wake up and will act as single heart and brain.

A world powerhouse like China which has massive talent is only now managing to make jet engines theres no way Pakistan can afford such expensive projects.

Some people on PDF seem to be living in la-la land!

You know what i think we should do... study every engine we can get our hands on, open them, rebuild them... copy them, work on projects with the Chinese to learn from them.

Try to work on small improvements, whether we can create materials which can withstand the same elements/pressures but are lighter.

Stuff like that, learn little specialist skills, also learn the basics, then try creating engines, let us learn to walk before we run.

Why is it that whenever some one talks about indigenous technology projects they completely ignore the fact that the project has to be “local” ….NOT every single aspect of it.

Example:

When Volvo designs a jet engine, it is in collaboration with other companies and states. Volvo sets the performance and design parameters. A gifted team “led” by Volvo personnel them recruit a range of experts from several corporations (outside the Ford group) or contract design specific personnel. Here comes the globalisation part; a plethora of sub-contractors and suppliers get involved to ensure that the design stage and testing stage is achieved with at least “nominal” success with a possibility of multiple design shifts or, God forbid, re-designs.

At no point in time is this a Volvo Aero only effort.

If Volvo Aero was to perform this in house, even within the Ford group, the engine would most certainly be sub standard when compared to others being offered on the market.

I picked Volvo Aero because they are not a giant in the industry yet still account for a 70 odd percentage penetration in the large engine production market. If they can not do it, then you certainly can not.

So, how does a consortium of say TUSAS/TEI (Turkey), HESA (Iran), PTDI (Indonesia), CTRM (Malaysia), DAE/GAMCO (UAE), AAC (Saudi) and Kamra (Pakistan) manage to achieve similar results ?

Answer, by following exactly the same method. There is enough expertise within these organisations to provide a “lead” on design and performance parameters. Considering the projected demand of replacing, for example, 80+ Medium Lift/Range Transport aircraft, over the next 20 years within the markets of these countries, the “$“ value of the collaborative contracts is immense. Using competitive bidding for co-operative stakes in sub systems almost every company worth their salt would try and get in the action. It’s a big pie and everyone will want their slice.
Considering TUSAS and PTDI’s previous experience in the production and CASA backed assembly of the CN 235, the project development issues would take comparatively less time to sort out then testing issues.

At the end of about a decade or maybe another half, you would have a Medium Lift Transport Aircraft that would meet the requirements of the project backers. EADS, Boeing, LM and most other western sub-system manufacturers will compete to be an integral part of the project and representation from Canada, Brazil, Russia, Ukraine and China would not be negligible. Israel and India would both want to be in with the project by one loop hole or the other.

Now does anyone here want to do the maths for the 4th gen fighter/bomber/attack-transport-helicopter replacement in the coming 20 years?

This is not the 1970s or even the 1990s when production hat to be “nation” centred.

Even though the above was just an example, but I now think it would be nice to initiate such a project, if for nothing else…..just to show the sloganeering US and EU (read anti-West) provoking lobbies within Muslim countries to understand that “interests” are at play, not conspiracy theories and certainly not prophecies of destruction. The Muslims, present circumstances dictate it whether you like it or not, are economic allies to these countries, but, for some reason the Muslim street does not seem to wake up to this realisation and remains in disarray. This arouses suspicions amongst their own leaders as well as leaders of other nations.

But hey, who cares, lets go and shout slogans for popularist causes of “Death to _________ (fill in the blank with your chosen antagonist) or join the other extreme and shout out loud that Muslims can not do anything, they all live in dreamland and thats all they are good for.


If you organise you house, the neighbours offer to help mow your lawn.. If you live like a beggar, expect to be kicked around by all.

What could be a smaller step than this? This is definitely walking before running.

For those who talk about R&D, this is what it is.

They don't do degrees in engine making. You start doing it and learn as you do it.

You learn a lot less if you don't do it at all.

perfect..really perfect comments...

Yes, afridi, I agree.This is why I said the parts can be bought off the shelf, I meant abroad.

Not every sub-component has to be designed and built at home.

In the interest of brevity I didn't say that we can hire foreign consultants for some of the work, we are essentially project management.

These two points make the task even easier.

As for 'the americans', as somebody said they didn't want us to have the bomb, and now we have it.

I remember years ago a discussion about building the first steel mill in pakistan. An 'expert' said passionately that building a steel mill is something the Americans will never let us do. Lol.

if you buy subcomponents abroad you are just assembling... we do that already.

Very well said brother... That's exactly why I said that there's a lack of will and almost self-pity. We tend to have a pessimistic view about almost everything yet don't have the courage to solve our problems. There's nothing in this world that we cannot achieve. We're all humans made out of the same flesh and blood. There's no need to have an inferiority complex or failure anxiety. There's no need to always compare ourselves to the US or the West in general. We usually react demoralised and create excuses for our inability. You'll notice that in a lot of discussions. On the contrary, we should've faith in our abilities. So what if it's complex and expensive to build an engine? There's no such thing as easy and cheap. However, we can jointly build an engine with friendly nations such as Turkey, SA and others in order to curb on cost and share expertise. Didn't the European nations build the EF engine? How many decades did it take the Europeans to produce the EF? Why can't we learn from them? I fully agree with you that we must start somewhere. The whole discussion is about achieving the capability of producing engines independently. In other words, becoming less reliant on the West in particular. Whether foreign input is required doesn't really matter. Whether it takes decades to build an engine doesn't also matter. The main goal should be to gain experience and expertise in this industry. If we want to ever become independent we must start somewhere and get rid of negativity. As an old Chinese proverb goes, "A journey of a thousand miles begins with one small step". It's a matter of taking the first step in our own interest...

The issue discussed was importing key subcomponents and integrating them with locally designed & manufactured systems...this is something that is starting slip into Pakistan. One of the 'simple' ventures is the Towed Array Sonar being used on Pakistani Agosta-90Bs...this TAS was developed and produced by a Pakistani company and used as an upgrade module on the Agostas. More complicated programs could include the avionics being developed for the JF-17...it is likely that PAC will be develop these with contracted foreign assistance from firms in China and Western Europe (as I stated much earlier). It is not simply assembling, the Pakistani industry has to match or exceed the PAF's requirements for a proper 4th generation fighter; PAC will could call upon the assistance of Selex in particular areas...the end result would not be shown on the Selex Product Page, but rather on PAC.

There are other areas on JF-17 where Pakistan may push the local industry in R&D...one major possibility is AAMs where Pakistan could engage in projects such as T- & A-Darter, but ultimately develop its own variants. Other more distinct possibilities include the development of nanocomposite parts to increase JF-17's serviceability and improve its maintenance ratings.

Nonetheless we must consider the fact that Pakistan has done very poorly in placing itself on the global sphere. It doesn't have a ton load to do with its terror issues, but rather absolutely poor decision making and no real foreign policy. We have a lot to blame on politics and all of our leaders to date for nationalizing the wrong industries; privatizing the wrong resources; investing in the wrong regions, etc. Had Pakistan properly integrated itself on the global sphere, the American rants against it would have stayed in the political room, whereas the commercial - i.e. the money - ignores those spheres completely...much like the modern U.S.-China relationship.

I was refering to engine production in TURKEY. You information still doesnt reveal that point.

PEACE OUT!

no one claimed turkey producing engine as only few countries doing it properly.
but if turkey have enough finance power it is not diffucult to do it here...
i told turkey has vast experience due to production of the some important parts
moreover turkey is about to develop small size jet engine for UAV (turboprop already in use)

Well Turkey is definitely on the right path...while not aircraft engines, I have seen some Turkish publications about large ship propulsion technology...suggesting that Turkey might be focusing on one day producing gas & diesel turbines for frigates & corvettes.

so, you are developing a small part of the engine and you have developed small size jet engine for UAV. Now, you think you are capable of developing and producing modern turbofan engines? Get a grip.

as advised turkey already developed small turbofan engine for UAV...
OTHERWISE turkish participation on JSF engine not only production of some parts but also some design!!!
if turkey ,pakistan,ksa make joint venture then it will be more and more easy ...

Spot on brother. Turkey is doing fine. It's one of the most advanced Muslim countries in the world. Their track record speaks for itself. Unless Muslim countries don't unite economically, politically and on other fronts there will be no progress. The challenges of this century can only be faced if Muslim states such as Turkey, Pakistan and KSA join hands and work together for their own sake. There're a few Muslim countries that have the potential of becoming powerhouses. Pakistan and Turkey belong to that particular league. Producing an engine is only the tip of the iceberg. The possibilities are endless.

look, from the sound of this, you clearly have no clue the difficulty in developing a modern engine and building the necessary industry to achieve mass production for that engine. It's no child play, I will tell you that.

Ohhh yes they do brother ;-)

Mechanical engineering is the degree in engine making

UGUR has a valid point. Collective countries putting their resources, efforts and expertise into the production of an engine will reduce the level of financial strain and to a certain extent the level of complexity. Also the burden of mass production can be addressed in that way. Of course, it isn't child play, but it isn't mission impossible either like many here want us to believe. I've already given the example of the Europeans. It's a matter of willingness as far as I see it. The key is to have nations working together. Many people are missing that point here. Also, I believe that sooner or later the Arabs will realize that solely relying on the West for spares and military hardware isn't the wisest of policies. The Arabs will only be doing themselves a huge favor by joining and funding this project. It's never a bad idea to have different options in this world. The names of the countries (Malaysia, China, Turkey, Pakistan, KSA etc.) that have been mentioned so far are perfectly capable of producing something qualitative. It might take time, but I'm sure that these countries are capable of pulling it off. The sooner these nations work together on the project the better.

BM, you said it, it is not mission impossible.

This theme of a group of muslim countries together is great in theory, but in practice...

Remember I am not advocating a new engine, but upgrading engines we already know everything about. There is no smaller step.

This is how to gain experience in the easiest and least expensive way.

it is no child play to build that engine of course,if it is easy i am sure that everyone will build jet engine.
but on the other hand turkey has such technology as we are supplying vital parts to f-16 engine
now we are in design side of JFS engine...

as advised it is officially declared by turkish engine industry that small size of turbofan engine will be ready for our indegenious UAV by 2011.

i agree you brother.. fully agree..
it is not mission impossible moreover imperialists achieved to impose us -muslims ,underdeveloped ,cannot achieve such things-
yes,we can do ,yes we can do BUT WE MUST UNITE,WE MUST BE TOGETHER..

Muslim countries such as Malaysia and Turkey are one of the most advanced Muslim nations. I think I don't have to explain that. Pakistan is the binding glue that can keep these nations together. If Pakistan is serious about the project these countries won't back off. The Arabs are there for the financing.

I think our failure has more to do with a lack of initiation by the pessemists and dreamers...rather than the ground realities.

The entire Muslim world has a lot of money and a rapidly growing number of universities, all we need is initiation with planning & venture.

I have done a little research since my initial post.

The engine of the A-5/mig 19 is 5 metres long and wouldn't do us any good ( wont fit on K-8). Probobaly no point in upgrading it.

There was a joint project between Denel of south africa and the French to upgrade the Atar-9 engine. I don't know much more, perhaps it didn't get very far.

An upgraded engine that enhances the performance of Mirage aircraft is very important to us.