It was President Musharraf who was most annoyed over PPP decision to weaken ISI. It was after this disagreement with the U.S. that it was decided in Washington that he must be removed and, suddenly, we find Mr. Zardari changing tone, demeanor and language to join hands with PML (N) to impeach the besieged President. First priority is therefore to remove the man who is now finally and formally betrayed by all those internal and external allies who had scavenged around him for the last 8 years. U.S. and Britain have given tacit approval and support for the coup and are not coming for the support of their 'trusted ally.' There is no doubt that both U.S. and Britain are closely monitoring the moves of the army as the Army Chief is also a major hurdle in U.S. plans to weaken the ISI. With all political parties in U.S. pocket, the army and the ISI are the next targets once the President is annihilated. It is now a direct head-on clash between CIA and him. If he survives somehow, he will become a strong President and may turn the tables against U.S. and PPP


By ZAID HAMID
Tuesday, 12 August 2008.
WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan-"The soul of our country needs to be awakened . . . When leaders act contrary to conscience, we must act contrary to leaders"-Veterans Fast for Life.


This week we will focus on dramatic developments in Islamabad which will very soon decide the fate of President Musharraf and the political future of the country. The CIA-sponsored, PPP-executed, and U.S.-backed attempted coup against ISI has begun to unfold with a new ruthless cutthroat political strategy and a new target designation which has following landmarks to be achieved in rapid succession.


1. Removal of President Musharraf.
2. Appointment of Mr. Zardari or his man as President.
3. Bringing ISI again under Ministry of Interior.
4. Complete takeover of Pakistan's security establishment by CIA.


Before we initiate our detailed analysis of this ruthless high risk game, let us review what we had written last week about CIA's plan to control ISI.


We had written:


In the past two weeks, a stunning axis of threat has emerged for Pakistan's national security. U.S. and India have joined hands in a coordinated media blitz, psy-ops and diplomatic attack to target the centre of gravity of Pakistani armed forces and to weaken the powerful institution which so far remains out of U.S. influence and control -- the Inter Services Intelligence, ISI.


There is no doubt that U.S. has been heavily involved lately with the 'democratic' U.S.-installed and backed PPP government in Islamabad to find ways and means to bring ISI under its tighter control through those players in the PPP government who are un-elected and un-accountable but are placed at strategic locations in the national security apparatus.


The reason to target ISI remains that it is now believed in the U.S. administration that while Pakistan army remains the most powerful institution in the country, it is the ISI which is the source of that strength for the armed forces. Hence by attacking, subduing, controlling and thus destroying ISI, U.S. and by extension India can permanently solve the problem of not having enough leverage on Pakistani armed forces. ISI remains the eyes and ears of Pakistan's national security establishment and its Director General is appointed by the army chief, hence the influence and control as well as loyalties of the ISI remains with the armed forces despite reporting to the Prime Minister.


So if the ISI can be penetrated and destroyed by U.S. appointed elements from the PPP government, it would be a stunning coup to take over Pakistan which US has been dreaming to achieve for decades. ISI has always out of US control and total influence despite very close relationship between CIA and ISI in the past and in the present.
After the failed coup against ISI and hence against army, the levels of trust between Pakistani armed forces and Pentagon are at their lowest at the moment despite apparent cordial relations. ISI and GHQ are definitely angry at the aims and objectives of the U.S. planners and the role the PPP government is playing in the process. The way orders of putting ISI under Rehman Malik were forcibly reversed at 3 am is in itself a complete commentary on the state of affairs after the botched CIA coup against ISI. Now the daggers are drawn. Each side will have to watch their backs, Indians too."


The daggers are indeed out. After the failed coup against ISI, CIA changed tactics this time and asked Mr. Zardari to target the powerful trio which had resisted the initial coup - President, army chief and the DG ISI. Zardari knows that he cannot challenge and take on ISI without the full and powerful backing of the U.S. and CIA.


U.S. government made it very clear that they do not want ISI to be bothering their allies and should be tamed and brought under their control. This U.S. perception is turning into obsession and paranoia that ISI is having its own agenda and is out of control of PPP government and U.S. designs. U.S. has even forced the PPP government not to cancel the earlier orders to bring ISI under Ministry of Interior, an absolute and total insult to the premier spy agency if not a total sell out of national security.


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US wants 'focused' intelligence services
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COLOMBO, Aug 3: The United States has said it will like to see 'focussed and good' intelligence services in Pakistan working on the agenda of reining in terrorism that has become a cause of concern for the country's neighbours. US Under-Secretary of State Richard Boucher said at a press conference here on Sunday that his government would want Pakistan to have a 'good intelligence service' that worked single-mindedly and in 'close step' with other institutions of the country, implying that the current mechanisms could be pursuing an agenda different from that of the government.
http://www.dawn.com/cgi-bin/dina.pl?file=t...p;date=20080804


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ISI notification held 'in abeyance'
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ISLAMABAD, Aug 5: Instead of withdrawing its July 26 notification which had placed the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) under the direct control of the interior division, the federal government decided on Tuesday to hold it 'in abeyance till further deliberations'. "The prime minister is pleased to direct that the federal government will carry out further deliberations on coordinating the intelligence efforts. Till the completion of these deliberations, the Cabinet Division's memorandum of even number, dated July 26, 2008, is held in abeyance," says an official announcement called 'Memorandum' issued by the Cabinet Secretariat.
http://www.dawn.com/cgi-bin/dina.pl?file=t...p;date=20080806


Ironically, it was President Musharraf who was most annoyed over the decision of PPP government to place ISI under MoI control. Hence, it was after this disagreement with the U.S. that it was decided in Washington that he must be removed and suddenly, we find Mr. Zardari changing tone, demeanor and language to join hands with PML (N) to impeach the besieged President. Zardari does not want to re-instate the judges but has found a way out that if he can have his own in the Presidency or he himself ideally, then he can deal with the judges as he wish. First priority is therefore to remove the man who is now finally and formally betrayed by all those internal and external allies who had scavenged around him for the last 8 years. U.S. and Britain has given tacit approval and support for the coup and are not coming for the support of their "trusted ally". There is no doubt that both U.S. and Britain are closely monitoring the moves of the army as the Army Chief is also a major hurdle in U.S. plans to bring ISI under MOI. With all political parties in U.S. pocket, the army and the ISI are the next targets once the President is annihilated.


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COUNTDOWN BEGINS: Asif, Nawaz shrug off 58(2)b threat; Musharraf to be asked by national and provincial assemblies to seek vote of confidence; impeachment to be followed by reinstatement of judges
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ISLAMABAD, Aug 7: Leaders of the Pakistan People's Party (PPP) and the Pakistan Muslim League-N (PML-N) have agreed to begin impeachment proceedings against President Pervez Musharraf,
http://www.dawn.com/cgi-bin/dina.pl?file=t...p;date=20080808


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Britain calls impeachment internal issue
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LONDON, Aug 7: The British government regards the move by the PPP-led coalition government to impeach President Musharraf as an internal matter of Pakistan.
http://www.dawn.com/cgi-bin/dina.pl?file=t...p;date=20080808


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Impeachment process must be consistent with rule of law, Constitution: US
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WASHINGTON, Aug 7: Spokesman Gonzalo R. Gallegos indicated at a regular briefing that the US was distancing himself from President Musharraf when he declared: "We will continue our close ties with the democratically elected government of Pakistan."... http://www.dawn.com/cgi-bin/dina.pl?file=t...p;date=20080808


There is still disagreement in U.S. policy makers over the deployed CIA strategy to remove President Musharraf so humiliatingly. The argument is that if the plan is to "tame" the ISI, is it better to work through Musharraf or work without him? The focus in any case remains on the ISI.


But it seems that the lobby which insists on removing President is gaining upper hand and now with total and complete betrayal by his allies and friends, President Musharraf is only left with extremely limited options to fight for his survival. In his entire career, he has never come so close to losing his grip on power. He was a sidelined man for the last six months in any case but still had the potential of becoming serious threat for the PPP government due to the powers vested in him to dissolve the assemblies.


Now he has the following options left:


1. Use his powers and dissolve the assemblies over non-performance, law and order crisis, bad governance and corruption. With U.S., Britain and his own political allies abandoning him, the only source of strength for President Musharraf to take such a drastic step could be the armed forces. But it seems that despite the obvious CIA plan to take over ISI, army wants to watch the developments more closely before making any move. President Musharraf does not control the army now and the GHQ would resist all temptations to interfere in the political process unless it becomes extremely necessary or the PPP government again tries to bring ISI under Mr. Zardari. President Musharraf it seems will have to fight this battle solo and he does not seem to be poised to take the radical step of pre-emptive counter attacking at this stage. He is losing precious moments and once the impeachment proceedings begin from Monday, he will lose even this option.


2. Face the impeachment process. He may or may not survive. It is now a direct head-on clash between CIA and him. If he survives somehow, he will become a strong President and may turn the tables against U.S. and PPP as well as against PML (N) and lawyers. Else, he will be a jobless man with a high probability of facing charges for 'crimes' of his government. This is a disaster scenario for him and the Saddam trial would be haunting him now.


3. He can resign and quit under a bargain that he will not be put on trial for his actions. This seems a low probability unless the army interferes to protect their former Chief from further humiliation.


In the next few days, President Musharraf's fate will be sealed, for good or bad. He is reaping what he has sowed by trusting the Americans, allying with corrupt PML (Q) and worst of all laundering Zardari through the infamous NRO to make him so powerful that today Musharraf's own throne is threatened by the man. Whatever is befalling President Musharraf today, he is totally and completely responsible for it. He chose his own advisors and allies and trusted the most unscrupulous and corrupt people this nation could throw up. Now when the crunch time has come, he stands alone, abandoned and betrayed by all his allies. His previous constituency, army, can perhaps step in to save him the humiliation of trial, jail and perhaps gallows, but is so far not willing to rescue him from impeachment or to consolidate his hold to power. The moment of truth has arrived for President Musharraf and now he has to face it alone. In the past he has survived both political crises as well as assassination bids. But somehow, this time it seems different. We shall know in a few days. But one thing is for sure, he will not go down without a fight.


This column is extracted from a situation report released by BRASSTACKS, a security and defense analysis think tank based in Islamabad. Mr. Zaid Hamid is its Founding Consultant. He can be reached at i...@brasstacks.biz


© 2007-2008. All rights reserved. AhmedQuraishi.com.
Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire article is permitted in any medium
without royalty provided this notice is preserved.

weird...on one hand you say the man is saying the truth on the other hand ur accusing mush of being a U.S pet...make up your mind...u cant have it both ways :)

We must start pressuring Zaid Hamid to step into politics. We need a leader like him.

he will ultimately, but it is a dangerous playground for him.

We must start pressuring Zaid Hamid to step into politics. We need a leader like him.

Yeah, we need someone who says openly "Hum India par kabza karengey InshahAllah, Delhi sey radio Pakistan ki awaaz sunaayege, Lal Qiley par Pakistani parcham lehrayengey". He's a jahil mullah with some knowledge of history. So sad many Pakistanis are bowled over by him just becoz he's presentable and articulate.

Yeah, we need someone who says openly "Hum India par kabza karengey InshahAllah, Delhi sey radio Pakistan ki awaaz sunaayege, Lal Qiley par Pakistani parcham lehrayengey". He's a jahil mullah with some knowledge of history. So sad many Pakistanis are bowled over by him just becoz he's presentable and articulate.

Why is ur donka on fire ???

ar u supporter of MQM or your Indian friends

BTW there is no difference between Altaf Hussain and Indian terrorists.
One more thing why on earth you take the pain to watch of listen him in the first place????

Do not injure something you can't Kill

What is wrong with you Shoaib? Why so much hate and venom against a man who has more knowledge and Imaan than you could ever produce in a life time? I didn't want to say this, but your posts and your behavior have forced me to. The day we fight for Pakistan, you will find me defending it and you will find yourself at the mercy of every raging Patriot of Pakistan. I'm sorry to say, but you're not one of us, you will be one of those who will be the first to flee to some western country when hell rains over and there is war. You are as weak and as thoughtless as a back biting traitor can be. You have no place in the midst of those who will readily sacrifice their lives for Pakistan. Shame on you, go search your soul, for if you don't find it, it is only you who would regret it.

he will never as PM. or President slot is tooooooooooooo small for a person like him for whom the love of the country is above everything :)

What have Mullahs given this nation?

Terrorism which has killed more Muslims in Pakistan than kaffirs outside.

A 14 year Jihad in Kashmir which did not achieve it objectives.

The ability to not achieve our full potential. A crippled economy. We all know how well our economy did in the 60's and 70's. Then Zia brought in the Mullahs and it has been downhill since. The worst part is, in all these years we've only become more pseudo-Islamic. It seems the only purpose of Islam in Pakistan is the employement and empowerment of the clergy. Who appointed the Mullahs the dispensers of our fate?

People like me are the reason this nation does not embarce the path of self-destruction that people like you want it to tread.

weird...on one hand you say the man is saying the truth on the other hand ur accusing mush of being a U.S pet...make up your mind...u cant have it both ways :)

weird...on one hand you say the man is saying the truth on the other hand ur accusing mush of being a U.S pet...make up your mind...u cant have it both ways :)

brother dizasta...i have been reading your posts for quite a while...and i have to admit your posts reek of nationalism. you do know nationalism is not allowed in Islam.

i mean i love my country too...but there is a difference between being patriotic and being a nationalist...u know y nationalism is illogical...heres why: y shud we stop at pakistani nationalism? mayeb balchi people can have baloch nationalism and fight for their own state...

these are just imaginary boundaries that exist only on maps...being on one side of the line and or the other side doesnt make a difference...not like a person has any control on which side of the line (which btw changes throught time) he/she is to be born...

tw..not relating to you...but sometimes i have seen some members make fun of how so many people in india live under poverty specially when it comes to discussing india's power ambitions...

i mean y in the world will u bring in poverty to make fun of a country...when i see a poor person my heart melts...i think its absolutely sick to make fun of a country using poverty as a tease.

Just when we thought this nation has had enough of Mullahs and their sermons! Zaid Hamid and his likes can only talk. Countless like him have come and gone. They only ranted, achieved nothing. Let's see which one of Zaid's dreams come true first - Putting an end to Riba, or hoisting the green flag on the red fort

Questioning your illogical ideas doesn't make me a MQM supporter or an India lover. I don't give a $hit about Altaf Hussain..

I listen to Zaid because everytime I think he can't get any dumber, he proves me wrong.

If you want to continue believing in wet dreams of Mullahs, carry on. It'll never happen.

BTW, you've recently been to India, right? So whats you impression? Is the time right to launch our 'Operation India Freedom'??? Are Hindus eager to embrace us with open arms and live under Islamic rule?

Jana, I suggest you remove this from your signature:

You obviously don't believe in it.

Yeh i visited your country and believe me we do not need to launch any operation. There are enough hate against the ruling Brahmins that it will disintegrate itself inshallah. As far as Hindus are concerned. You need to diffrentiate between real Hindus and the Brahmins. The hinduism belong to real Hindus who are oppressed and they hate brahmins. I had seen them they are humble people carrying no hate unlike the ruling class which had snatched everything from them and which is enemy of Pakistan too

he will never as PM. or President slot is tooooooooooooo small for a person like him for whom the love of the country is above everything :)

Yet its not really strange that words bounce off you as if from a wall...

Nothing is more powerful than the truth...

“Oh you who believe (in the Qur’aan), do not take Jews and Christians as friends and allies who themselves are friends and allies of each other. And whoever of you (Muslims) turn to them (with friendship and alliance) becomes, verily, one of them; behold, Allah does not guide such evildoers.”

(Qur’aan, Al-Maidah, 5:51)

Know who your enemies are and their beliefs

The Hindus: Hinduism declares that the movement of history is cyclic, i.e., going around in circles and thus constantly repeating itself. When one cycle is completed, another one commences. In the view of many Hindu scholars today, as well as in the popular Hindu religious consciousness, the movement of history is now located at the in time when one cycle is coming to an end and another is about to begin. Thus for the Hindus this is, in a sense, a last age, i.e., the end of the present cycle of history.

While Hinduism is prepared to recognize truth manifesting itself in the form of many rivers flowing to the same sea, the fact is that Hinduism is also firmly insistent that when those rivers all reach that common sea it is the Hindu conception of truth that is certain to prevail. The logical implication is that cycle cannot end without the validation of the Hindu conception of truth. What is that implication of truth? And what are the implications for the rest of mankind if such a truth were to be validated?

Hinduism and the (so called) destiny of the Holy Land of Bharat: Hinduism is built on the concept of a Holy Land, i.e. Bharat, that includes not only present-day India, but also much of the surrounding regional territory. Hinduism clings with evergreen nostalgia to a golden age in the distant past in which the gods and goddesses of Hinduism lived on earth and the truth of Hinduism dominated the then known world from the holy land. Hindus believe that Hinduism has an exclusive religious right to dominance in that holy land of Bharat, and that Hindus therefore have a religious obligation to ensure that the Hindus conception of truth prevails in the Holy Land (Bharat).

Eight centuries of Muslim rule over that holy land, followed by the supposed partition (which in truth was the creation of Pakistan) of the Holy Land to accommodate the creation of Muslim Pakistan, Muslim Bangladesh, Muslim Maldives, Hindu Nepalese and Buddhist Sri Lanka, inflicted a wound on this so called holy land and, by implication, on the Hindu religious consciousness. It also set the stage for a struggle for restoring the integrity of the so called holy ‘Bharat’ would end, in the Hindu religious view, with such a validation of the Hindu conception of truth that would require Muslim Pakistan and Muslim Bangladesh and other surrounding territories that were once (apparently) ‘Bharat’ to be reabsorbed within this fictitious holy land, and that a undivided holy land of ‘Bharat’ under Brahmin Hindu political, economic and religious dominance be restored.

The Brahmin Hindu conception of the truth is firmly based on the belief that mankind was created unequally. The Brahmin Hindu is born into the highest caste and is thus the elite of mankind. The rest of the non-Brahmin mankind are inferior to him and are known as Dalits (untouchables). Notice the similarity between the Jewish and Hindu concepts, where Jews segregate on the basis of Jews and Gentiles (not the chosen people of God). That belief in inherent superiority and inferiority of human beings naturally lends itself to the establishment of a system of dominance. The implication, in so far as the historical process is concerned, is that history cannot end without the political dominance of a Brahmin-rules ‘Bharat’ over all others within the sphere of influence. The political and economic life of South Asia is moving precisely in that direction.

There are political implications that emerge from this Hindu conception of the end of history. The first is that the approach of an end of the present cycle would necessarily give rise to the emergence of a Hindu religious nationalism that would impact ominously on the political and economic relations with non-Hindu (particularly). That is already occurring.

Secondly it makes it inevitable that those Hindus with faith in the Hindu conception of the end of history would make common cause with those who (Zionists and their Serb-o-Russian, British, European and American dogs) are waging war on Islam around the world (Chechnya, Bosnia, Sudan, Afghanistan and Iraq). They (the Hindus) would also do so because of the perception of Islam as the major obstacle that stands in the way of Hinduism realizing its so-called historic destiny. They would do so in order to realize the end of history that would apparently validate Hinduism by way of restoring the integrity and undivided unity of the holy Hindu motherland of ‘Maha-Bharat’ (mother India). It is precisely for this reason that India is now becoming, after America, Israel’s most strategic ally in the world. Someone should tell those illiterate fools like Nawaz Shareef, Zardari and others who’re promoting visa free policy b/w Pakistan and India, how perilous their idea is and how these self-centered, egoistic p|g$ are going to destroy Pakistan in for their personal and ignorant gains.

Let all those fools who’re like Nawaz Shareef and Asif Zardari note that there are Hindus who would reject this conception of the end of history with the Brahmin dominance over the rest of mankind, and would insist justice, and that fraternity with all of mankind who reciprocate such values, must be the goal of Hinduism in the end of history. Such is the divide which would take place within the Hindu society and for such reasons, one should realize that it is the Brahmin conceptual idealists, just like the zealot Zionists, are the ones who would effectively be in control of India and its strategic interests.
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Jana, its fools like Shoaib Pervez who support india and are illiterate enough to make retarded comments against Pakistan and people who love this country with their heart and soul. Ignore him.

Do you happen to know the email address of Zaid Hamid? If you do can you please PM it to me as I want to communicate with him. Anyone else know it? I would appreciate it.

The Brahmin Hindu conception of the truth is firmly based on the belief that mankind was created unequally. The Brahmin Hindu is born into the highest caste and is thus the elite of mankind. The rest of the non-Brahmin mankind are inferior to him and are known as Dalits (untouchables). Notice the similarity between the Jewish and Hindu concepts, where Jews segregate on the basis of Jews and Gentiles (not the chosen people of God). That belief in inherent superiority and inferiority of human beings naturally lends itself to the establishment of a system of dominance. The implication, in so far as the historical process is concerned, is that history cannot end without the political dominance of a Brahmin-rules ‘Bharat’ over all others within the sphere of influence. The political and economic life of South Asia is moving precisely in that direction.

Similarly there are two Ababeels one is Pakistani and one is Indian.

Don't rant your local moulvi's sermon verbatim. Zaid Hamid rants so eloquently about Brahmin hold over India. JANA claims to have visited India and says "ruling Brahmins". Do you people have any knowledge of contemporary India???

Brahmins no longer control India.

Democracy has insured Brahmins lose their historical privileges. Infact it sucks to be a Brahmin in today's India. With reservations in education and jobs for the backwards, there are that many less oppurtunities for the Brahmins. List me all the Brahimins who hold power in politics and business and entertainment in India. Hindus are not divided amongst Brahmins and the rest. There are Brahmins, then other "higher" castes, then those in the middle who are the Other Backward Classes(OBC) and then the "lower" castes who are the dalits. The word 'dalit' means 'oppressed'. The OBCs have much of the control of the Indian politics today. The lower castes have reservation in the parliament and are represented according to population.

Ignorant folks believe only Brahmins hate Muslims. Is Narendra Modi a Brahmin? He's belongs to OBC. So do many other anti-Mislim potheads like Uma Bharti. Talk to any Indian and they'll tell you about the meteoric rise of Mayawati, the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh who is a dalit. She's being talked about as the only serious non-BJP non-Congress prime ministerial candidate.

But guess what, no one needs to listen to me. I'm an "India lover".

Who wants to be told that India is growing stronger and barriers are being broken in that country.

My Indophillic rants are not as sexy as the scholarly preachings of Zaid Hamid and likes which make us believe that an implosion in India is iminent and we'll witness the green flag on the red fort in our life-time.

Your oh so contemporary hindustan (never was an india) is a figment of the imagination. Lemme tell you the reality of your beloved hindustan (never was an india). It was given a religion by the Greeks when Alexander invaded hindustan (never was an india). Before that, they were just a bunch of animals who wiped their @$$e$ with leaves. The Muslims gave these goons architecture. The Brits gave them infrastructure. They lie out of their @$$e$ about their oh so rich culture, when all that they got was from others.

Your contemporary hindustan (never was an india) has half burnt bodies floating in the river ganges, while dogs chew through their flesh on the banks of that filthy river. Your contemporary hindustan (never was an india) didn't know squat about unity because it never was india, rather divided states ruled by pity lords. It is only when the Muslims came, that the lands came under one rule. Contemporary hindustan (never was an india) is drinking cow urine and marrying their own grandmothers.
The word Brahmin means 'a member of aristocracy'. It is the elite of that rat country which are in power, that makes them Brahmin. Go back to school and learn something, retard.
Spare me your barks, the oldest racist people are hindus. To this day, there are caste divides in hindustan (never was an india). Documentaries have been published and shown around the globe of your caste infested hindustan (never was an india). Islam brought an end to segregation, Muslims accepted shudras as any other human and Muslims showed them that they were not less than anyone else. History witnessed it when Muhammad Bin Qasim came to hindustan (never was an india) to avenge the treachery hindu cowards.
Yap, yap, yap, yap ...... do you actually have a brain, or do pretend to own one? You're living in the twenty first century, where everything has become so grey and vague that it is all along the lines of achieving your objectives. Al-Qaeda isn't Muslim? They are, but do they represent the Muslim masses? No, however they are being used by zionists to fulfill their objectives. So to, your modi character is being used to achieve the objective, irrespective of what his back ground is from.
I think we have pretty much established that fact.
Only ones who're willing like you to be deluded in such lies.
When the time comes, I will come look for you that day, Insha-Allah.

Dizzy, stop attacking my beloved Hindustan. You're making me cry.

Listen Mr. Taliban, you can have your ideas about India or Hindus or whatever, doesn't bother me one bit. Your wet dreams aren't coming true, thats all I know.

We gave these Hindus ingrates so much, and all we took from them was sects like Deobandis, Barelvis, etc. Right Dizzy? We didn't get a good return on investment it seems

Brahmin does not mean 'a member of aristocracy'. Brahmins are the priestly caste. Brahmins were never rulers. Ruling was the domain of the Hindu Kshatriya(warrior) castes like the Rajputs, Marathas, etc. Brahmins were the only ones entitled to attain knowledge about Hindusim. Hindu preists could only be Brahmins - this practice still continues today. An if you did infact refer India's elite in power as Brahmins, then let me tell you no such thing exists. The ruling 'elite' comprises all groups and castes. If you still want to argue, then list the groups/castes that form the ruling elite. Or list the key people who form the 'elite'. We'll see if a pattern emerges.

I didn't claim there aren't caste divides in "Hindustan (never was an India)" (whatever the f&*k that means)
Most Pakistanis including future prime ministers/presidents like Zaid Hamid are misinformed that the Dalits continue to live life like they did before independence. Thats not true. There's no 'untouchability' any more. They have reservations in education and jobs and parliament. In India if you use the word 'chamar' derogatively, you go to jail. Hindus have achnowledged that caste system has to be disbanded. Most Pakistanis have problem comprehending that. For the majority in Pakistan including the "scholars", India will never emerge a modern, truly egalitarian state, and they secretly don't want it to. For them the Indian democracy is a "sham & farce". No wonder nobody else in the world shares our opinions about India.

Al-Qaida isn't being used by Zionists. Enough of make-believe cr@p. And who controls the "Modi character"? The elite? Again, who is the elite?

By the way, how far are the Taliban from Parachinar. Are they in yet? Will you fight them too? Or you gonna save all the energy for the "Operation Indian Freedom" special task force that will leave for Delhi's Lal Qila!

Hinduism is not one religion...

It is a collection thereof...

The northern relatively fair skinned people are the aryan invaders...

The dark skinned southerners worship shiva, and phallic symbols; which are identical to ancient religions from africa...

Indra, brahma, krishna, vishnu are basically aryan kings who were deified...

They are the perpetrators of the worst oppression in history... the caste system...

Dizzy, stop attacking my beloved Hindustan. You're making me cry.

Listen Mr. Taliban, you can have your ideas about India or Hindus or whatever, doesn't bother me one bit. Your wet dreams aren't coming true, thats all I know.

We gave these Hindus ingrates so much, and all we took from them was sects like Deobandis, Barelvis, etc. Right Dizzy? We didn't get a good return on investment it seems

Brahmin does not mean 'a member of aristocracy'. Brahmins are the priestly caste. Brahmins were never rulers. Ruling was the domain of the Hindu Kshatriya (warrior) castes like the Rajputs, Marathas, etc. Brahmins were the only ones entitled to attain knowledge about Hindusim. Hindu preists could only be Brahmins - this practice still continues today. An if you did infact refer India's elite in power as Brahmins, then let me tell you no such thing exists. The ruling 'elite' comprises all groups and castes. If you still want to argue, then list the groups/castes that form the ruling elite. Or list the key people who form the 'elite'. We'll see if a pattern emerges.

I didn't claim there aren't caste divides in "Hindustan (never was an India)" (whatever the f&*k that means)

Most Pakistanis including future prime ministers/presidents like Zaid Hamid are misinformed that the Dalits continue to live life like they did before independence.

Thats not true. There's no 'untouchability' any more. They have reservations in education and jobs and parliament. In India if you use the word 'chamar' derogatively, you go to jail. Hindus have achnowledged that caste system has to be disbanded. Most Pakistanis have problem comprehending that. For the majority in Pakistan including the "scholars", India will never emerge a modern, truly egalitarian state, and they secretly don't want it to. For them the Indian democracy is a "sham & farce". No wonder nobody else in the world shares our opinions about India.

By the way, how far are the Taliban from Parachinar. Are they in yet? Will you fight them too? Or you gonna save all the energy for the "Operation Indian Freedom" special task force that will leave for Delhi's Lal Qila!

Yeah, we need someone who says openly "Hum India par kabza karengey InshahAllah, Delhi sey radio Pakistan ki awaaz sunaayege, Lal Qiley par Pakistani parcham lehrayengey". He's a jahil mullah with some knowledge of history. So sad many Pakistanis are bowled over by him just becoz he's presentable and articulate.

Do please cry as hard as you can, we would be relieved of a runt like you when you're dead and gone from this world. Continue to cry, don't stop on my account.
Awe .... did I hit a nerve there for poor mr. hindu lover? Has it been a long time since you got your urine shower? You're one screwed in the brain, retarded j@(ck@$$ that has watched one too many indian movies and is brainwashed beyond the point of return. So good luck with your life and defending your rat-country, for if I ever come across you, I will make sure to put you out of your misery.
You hindus got what you deserved, if you didn't choose to accept Islam, that is your choice. But when you conspire and chawk up sinister designs against Pakistan, then you will get what is coming to you. I will relish the day when you go six feet under ..... err ... no wait, you would be burnt like you hindu brothers .... right!!!! Whatever the case, I would relish it, because what you will get in return after death is very small compared to the mangled death that awaits you.
Keep living in your deluded hindu mentality, retard, look it up in the dictionary, not bhindiary and you would find the word to be as 'a member of aristocracy in hindu society'.
Really .... so you didn't claim that there were sudras as a caste, dalits as a caste and that they are treated as the untouchable in hindu society and brahmins are considered as superior to the rest? Why don't you go and get your brain a little more fu©ked, watching those retarded hindustani movies and then rant some more .... idiot!

Oh and incase your puny little head you claim to have a brain in, didn't get the part about hindustan and that there wasn't anything called india ..... it is as simple as it can be. Since there wasn't no india, there never will be any 'Akhund Bharat'. The two nation theory holds no relevance, as Pakistan existed since day one! There was no partition, it was the ceremonial statehood of Pakistan and it just recieved its territorial boundry recognition!!! Now do you get it ...... @$$hole??!!!!!
Dalits did not ever get independence you moron. The continued economic oppression that is wide spread across the world, allows the rich to become permanently rich and the poor to be gripped in permanent poverty. There is no way that these dalits would ever be able to get out of the caste system (hindu racism) nor would they be able to break the shackles of poverty along with the countless others that are joining the ranks.
Our views? You mean Pakistani views? You are insinuating that you're a Pakistani? Really? Your pathetic kind can be seen from a mile. You're a hindu loving bhindi in disguise. Its very clear how you lot operate and its nothing new to us. So why put on the show ...... but wait, thats the only thing you hindustanis are really good at ..... acting!!! I guess you can continue to be the clown that you are and entertain us for what its worth ...... presumably, the equivalent of a two dollar hindustani whore, running around our forum, pretending to be a Pakistani.
If you really are a man and have the courage to take me on. Then I see that you've posted your location as 'Karachi', how about you PM me your address or a location. Since I am in Parachinar and in Pakistan, its very easy for me to get to Karachi and I would be glad to rip your head off and leave you body mutilated on the streets of Karachi ..... with a big red spray remark ..... entitled 'he's a hindustani rat'.

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Don't rant your local moulvi's sermon verbatim. Zaid Hamid rants so eloquently about Brahmin hold over India. JANA claims to have visited India and says "ruling Brahmins". Do you people have any knowledge of contemporary India???

Brahmins no longer control India. Democracy has insured Brahmins lose their historical privileges. Infact it sucks to be a Brahmin in today's India. With reservations in education and jobs for the backwards, there are that many less oppurtunities for the Brahmins. List me all the Brahimins who hold power in politics and business and entertainment in India. Hindus are not divided amongst Brahmins and the rest. There are Brahmins, then other "higher" castes, then those in the middle who are the Other Backward Classes(OBC) and then the "lower" castes who are the dalits. The word 'dalit' means 'oppressed'. The OBCs have much of the control of the Indian politics today. The lower castes have reservation in the parliament and are represented according to population.

Ignorant folks believe only Brahmins hate Muslims. Is Narendra Modi a Brahmin? He's belongs to OBC. So do many other anti-Mislim potheads like Uma Bharti. Talk to any Indian and they'll tell you about the meteoric rise of Mayawati, the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh who is a dalit. She's being talked about as the only serious non-BJP non-Congress prime ministerial candidate.

But guess what, no one needs to listen to me. I'm an "India lover". Who wants to be told that India is growing stronger and barriers are being broken in that country. My Indophillic rants are not as sexy as the scholarly preachings of Zaid Hamid and likes which make us believe that an implosion in India is iminent and we'll witness the green flag on the red fort in our life-time.

Dizzy, have you logically replied to any of my questions? When you have no answers, you call me Indian- The untlimate knockout punch for a defeated Mullah. I have more knowledge about India and eastern religions than Zaid Hamid, JANA, you and all your likes put together. When I see illogical stuff written around, I correct it. I have no moral obligation to educate you. If you want to continue living in dreamland, do so. There are many on this forum who will agree with what I wrote. I guess that makes them "Indian lovers" too.

Regarding, your proposal for a rendezvous so you could gladly rip my head off and leave my body mutilated on the streets of Karachi, with a big red spray remark titled 'I was a hindustani rat', and putting my miseries to end..... well I think I'll pass. I'm scared. I really don't doubt your ability to do all that to me. I've seen your bretheren from ANP do similar stuff here in Karachi. I'm not gonna risk challenging you on the only thing you must be good at. Good luck with Operation Lal Qila. I'll be cheering.

Yeah, we need someone who says openly "Hum India par kabza karengey InshahAllah, Delhi sey radio Pakistan ki awaaz sunaayege, Lal Qiley par Pakistani parcham lehrayengey". He's a jahil mullah with some knowledge of history. So sad many Pakistanis are bowled over by him just becoz he's presentable and articulate.

Guess what no matter how much YOu Indians try to hide behind Muslim names and ID on forums, just one anti-India thread send you boiling like anything and exposes you.
Hmmm your above post is enough to disclose your dirty brahmin identity.

:lol: Turst me dear me and Dizasta have no love for multilating bodies of dirty things ;)

Hinduism is vast, and vague. No two Hindus from different parts of India are identical. Religous practices vary. Also certain gods are worshipped only in cetain regions.

Actually Shiva is worshipped throughout India, more in the north than south. The Amarnath shrine which is in Kashmir is believed to be phallus of Shiva, and is flocked by North Indians. South Indians worship a different mix of gods. Certain temples are unique to South India.

I don't think Aryan kings were embodied into Hinduism. I believe Hinduism to be purely mythological. Don't think any of its scriptures is true. Caste system was a social order which was incorporated into the religion to divide and rule the society.

Then I suggest you read a translation of the Rig Veda... It is a tale of conquest... And that is historically where these gods come from...

http://jorde-lab.genetics.utah.edu/elibrar...mshad_2001a.pdf

Caste system was created to keep the aryan blood pure and the indigenous people enslaved...

It is not a "social order"... It is racial oppression raised to the Nth power... Imagine enslaving an entire race for thousands of years... The oppression that you see today is a very very diluted form...

That PDF wasn't he Rig veda, and had no info regarding Aryan kings. I don't think the whole caste system can be broken into Aryan vs Dravidian divide. There are fair/wheatish skinned shudras in north India who certainly aren't dravidians. How the system came into being will never be known. Caste system was indeed an tool of opression like you say, but it was also a complete "social order". The slavery of shudras and the dominance of the Brahimins and Kshatriyas was ensured since it was incorporated with the religion.