As Zardari celebrates Musharraf's exit, i was wondering from all the people on this forum.... is there anyone who views Zardari favourably?

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20080314elpe...o_asesinada.jpg

Please give us one reason why this guy should not be hanged?

As far as im concerned with Musharraf's departure...Zardari is the biggest threat to National Security of Pakistan, as he has gone from Mr.10% to Mr.90% overnight.

God help Pakistan.

Zardari is a crook and a fraud.

I got another one, Zardari is greedy.

How about........GHADARI!

I swear to God! he is corrupt, rapist, murderer & traitor beyond our imagination

Some one please please put him down six feet.

He is a munafiq sell-out, a crook and thief. Who could possibly like him? Apart from his son lol!

Well at least we all agree on something, man he has to be pretty bad to get us all to agree!

I just cant believe he is our ruler now, are we really that bad? It sends a shiver down my spine...


Something for us to think about....

Al-Bayhaqi also narrated from al-Hasan that the Israelites asked Musa - upon him peace - saying: "Ask your Lord to show us how we can tell He is pleased with us and how we can tell He is displeased." He asked Him and He said: "Tell them: My good pleasure with them is [seen in] the fact that I make their best govern them, and that my displeasure with them is [seen in] the fact that I make their most evil ones govern them." ...

He is a traitor and a crook. I wonder who in the hell are those two people who voted for him.

Thats what i was thinking, probably those Indians who lurk around this forum.

Today after the resignation, I heard PPP PaPPus chanting.... Aik Zardari, Sab pey bhaari... Aik Zardari...

lol... some people voted they like him, but do not have the courage to defend him openly.

I just voted yes

Agree with Plat.

No one will detail his positives but still vote for him because he is seen as a democrat. Sad reason.

Zardari gets points from me for being a smooth criminal. He has brains.
Nawaz on other hand is highly egotistical vengeful crook.

No way!

Pakistan is screwed with Zardari and Nawaz.

All I can say is that Pakistani people have made the worst mistake of their lives.

Well for me its more than enough that the People of Pakistan have voted mostly for PPP+PML-N.

We all say Pakistan first, but when the people of Pakistan votes they are called Pindhus and even worse things by PDF members.

Hell, if it really is that the current government is corrupt and they run away with all the money and planes, then I still respect the election since it was the majority of the people, that voted.

Instead people sit here claiming to be FOR Pakistan but calling the voters for idiots and so on.

Yes I would be really angry too if Chaudries were reelected for top posts, but you guys, if thats what the majority wants then thats it and I too have to respect the choice even though I dislike it. Calling the people for idiots etc. will only prove that it is Pakistan first as long as things happens MY way. See the point??


Pakistan first, and the choice of the people first!

People of Pakisatn? Dude you have a slight idea of how the majority of Pakistanis is? Over 80% uneducated! They have no idea what to do and what not. They listen to sweet songs sung by PPP and PML-N and think that they will give them basic facilities of life.
Try to get vote from the educational sector of Pakistani people and then you would know who is what. Most of the educated people didnt vote because they knew the conducts of PPP and PML in past. Mark out my words. Democracy is not for Pakistan. It is a tool dat west is using to weaken Pakistan day by day. Open your eyes! Early the better.

Adios

And there we go again, majority of Pakistan are illiterate stupidos...

I will use Denmark as an example.

There was a King, and then there were a bunch of (less educated) stupid farmers that demanded power. They got the power and look where it ended.
The excuse that democracy is just a Western idea to keep Pakistan down is lame. Saying that democracy can't work in Pakistan is lame.

How can democracy even work when it never got a fair chance in Pakistan?? Always dictators taking over the power and military/ISI always interfering.

It can't be mine problem if your claim is true about educated people not voting, if it is correct what you are saying and thats the reason, then those educated people most be senseless. If they don't even try to vote for a change, how can there EVER be a change? If they care about Pakistan then they would have been out and voted for what they thought was right, but apparently they didn't.

Now the "illiterate naive" people have voted and we got this government.
But tell me one thing though, what about the lawyers? Are they illiterate too since they were against the previous government?

Mine eyes are wide open but maybe you too my bro should start thinking about your eye opening sentence. It isn't correct, democracy in Pakistan would mean troubles for the West or atleast the "War of terror". The US has always wanted to support dictators since they are much easier to control, not only in Pakistan but look around in South America and the Mideast too.

Once again, the majority of the voters have elected PPP+PML-N+ANP. That is Pakistan first now. PTI etc. stopped themselves by boycotting, that can't be my problem now since the majority of the voters have elected this government and none other.

Respect the people for chosing what they wanted, don't reject the people just because they didn't chose what you wanted. Same thing goes for current government supporters after the next elections!

if you don't call 1947 to 1956 fair
if you don't call 1971 to 1977 fair
if you don't call 1988 to 1999 fair


than there's nothing fair on this God's Green Earth

Double post

No, I am not asking why people voted for them, just asking what are their positives inregards to Zadari. He is the main man. Neutral people voted for everyday issues like food and electricity, not because they especially like them. PML N and PPP in Sindh and Punjab are the only alternative to PML Q durin election. Getting back to my question what is his strengths?

You really dont understand how "democracy" in Pakistan works do you?

Majority of Pakistan is a feudal society, with landlords that rule like Godfathers - they "get" the vote from the peasants and workers no matter what it takes. They in turn kick up the votes and are paid off by their superiors, who are cronies to the big guys like Zardari and Shariff.

So firstly there is no such thing as true democracy (on the Western model) in Pakistan and never can be so long as the feudal system is intact. How to abolish the feudalism? Well Education is the obvious answer, except 60-80% of the populace is illiterate! - That is whopping percentage and its a endless cycle in which the poor stay poor (and get even poorer) and the rich take turns at buying power.

Thats the situation in Pakistan.

And just for your information, a note on Democracy in general...

Your rationale that "the people cant be wrong" is ridiculous.

Majority of people have only self-interest in mind, they do not care for the State because their primary concern is their own livelihood.

Ilama Iqbal compared your beloved Democracy to Donkeys.

He gave the famous example, that if a 1000 Donkeys vote, they will still elect a Donkey.

So next time you hear the term "Democracy" the image or symbol that it should conjure up in your mind is that of a Donkey.

Pakistan cannot and will not progress until we spit on Democracy like the Chinese do.

No

But a shocking 12% actually say YES on this very forum!

I bet its 89% Pro Zardari on India Defence!

I dislike him so much, he talks very convincingly though.

And guys, give shahid_2dk a break.

For what it's worth, I appreciate what you're saying. It's something I've maintained for a long time.

Illiteracy does not equal stupidity. Everyone is going on about how our illiterate quam

How insulting is this? I have relatives from rural Pakistan. In these areas, I've seen undeducated people having the most sensible head on their shoulders. On the other hand, seemingly educated people elect PPP.

Can aggree with what you are trying to say, my problem is not with the dihati or the average Joe on the street (who to be honest could teach me a thing or two) i think when we say illiterate (we refer to the Paray Likhay Jahil) atleast i do.

:)

DUPLICATE POST ... SORRY

Have not got much time to write stories. I would be brief. Oout of 100 smokers, 5 are able to cross 80. I wouldn't start advising people that smoking is good just because I met Mr. X who lived long. Furthermore, Denmark is a completely different soup you are talking about .


Scroll down and someone has already answered that.



To select between Zardari and Nawaz? Some more choices please for educational votes?


Because there were thrown out of their offices. Thats more of a revenge move rather than an intellectual response.


trouble for west? Trouble for west is a strong nuclear Pakistan. The more destabilized Pak is the better. and the WOT is just for novice people. The game behind that is evident from recent US, india and Israel moves.


Tell me about it!


Your point is void. People are already feeling the heat.

I believe Zardari's original line of trade was kidnapping for ransom. I've heard that since he became ruler of Pakistan kidnappings have increased massively. Zardari's friends in the business are enjoying their man in power.

Zardari is a perfect yes man for the U.S. The U.S. could not find a better sycophant. Now as U.S. has succeeded in removing the last hurdle to control the govt of Pakistan as now obviously the next president will be a stooge of Zardari or ganja. The problem now is to engage the military in Pakistan who had abandoned President Musharraf and this will give encouragement to the U.S. and the Zardari govt. Lets see how the COAS behave now when U.S. forces finally enter Pakistan in the tribal areas as this govt will not have the balls to refuse their masters.

Few bhangees from east i guess

I dont really buy the illiterate argument.

Our population is one of the most political aware bunch of people in the world. Every tea chat would end up with politics. You meet a stranger and after a few minutes its politics they talk about. People cant read and write but they talk politics.

People know who they are choosing. And in most cases they elect goons.

unfortunately, critical thinking is not part of our culture or society. And can only be taught through orginized education.

PPP wins because of the roti kapra makaan concept and the fact that they push for jobs for the jialas...

Lekin if you ask me personally; I think this may be the last election where they score significant points...

Rehman Malik, Salman Taseer and co are un elected people... Zardari moved ahead with the elections without disturbing the party... He made changes after the elections...

the ones that voted yes are the bhindian pee drinkers on this forum!!!

True that. We are so used to having dogma beliefs that its blocking our ability to think rationally.

There is a saying,
you cheat me once, shame on you
you cheat me twice, shame on me.

What good did the 2 parties do that they warranted to be re-elected. If someone's surprised that Pakistan goes in a downward spiral then that person should be slapped.

There would be a few 1000 people who would be getting jobs and perks in bankrupted public entities and inefficient beauracracy. But when after a few months, the sh!t hits the fan for the rest, then we'll see. Either way the Pakistanis are at the losing end.

As for Zardari, that rascal is the biggest corrupt the world has ever seen.

Shahid, for your own benefit please research into the history and evolution of democracy in Denmark or Britain etc. You will realise it was a gradual process, nobody woke up one day and handed the country over to peasants.

Emotional people don't think about long term consequences when they act. After BB's death Ghadari seized the moment with both hands and made the most of the opportunity. Musharraf's blunders added petrol the the fire.

@ Instantexcess

Would you call 1988-1999 a stable democratic period with no interference at all from Army/ISI ? I've heard Hameed Gul tell that it wasn't.

Then there is 15 years of democracy back according to the periods you wrote. Pakistan has been existing for more than 60 years. Do you call that a fair chance?

The dicatators haven't been good to Pakistan. Musharraf at least made some succesful reforms etc..


@ Sardar

Thx for the lecture, but in the end you still don't understand what I am saying. Let me once try again then:

You people are so emotionally attacked that you won't even bother understanding what I am saying:

"Your rationale that "the people cant be wrong" is ridiculous."

Would you kindly tell me when I ever said that?

The majority of the voters voted for the current government, therefore it's the current government that won. I am not talking about the best government or the worst government, I am talking about what the voters elected!



@Alijess

So what you are saying is that the elected ones shouldn't be respected for their winnings?

Are you trying to tell me that with Musharraf as the President and the current government Pakistan was more stable?
Pakistan was UNSTABLE just as it would be if Nawaz, Zardari or even Imran Khan were Presidents while PML-Q+MQM etc. were sitting in the government!
Why were the lawyers thrown out of their offices? Isn't rule of law the foundation of every country, hell even families. (If the kids don't respect their parents consider the family to be splitted apart)

@ Rungroot, Psychosaint, Ghias. And others in other threads.

This is higly disturbing. Members who are coming out of the closets ( and even a couple of longterm and respected members) stating that everyone who doen'ts share the same opinion as them are wrong/stupid or just Indians etc.

How childish isn't that?

@ Tamerlane

Kidnappings have been going on for a long time, even while Musharraf was the president, but it doesn't mean that Musharraf was behind them!!!


Geeze, so many rumors and gossip. I've heard Musharraf is a Qadiani/Ahmadi. I've heard that BB wore jeans and shirts. I've heard Imran Khan is an Israeli spy. I've heard MMA is Al-Qaeda. I've heard Zardari's moustache is fake. I've heard that Bilawel Z. Bhutto is a playa. I've heard Nawaz was bald. I've heard blablablabla!!! Cut it out ! These things always dominate in Pakistani politics but says nothing.


@ Plati bro

See, that story was a tiny minor point in the post, but a couple of people have only focussed on that part.
Pakistan hasn't just been turned into democracy from one day to the other.
According to Musharraf, and I agree with him to an extent, Pakistan was a democracy under his rule. Nonetheless he has initiated a number of processes that smoothens the transition towards democracy.


Now let me once again tell you people, I don't care who won!! I just care that the ones who one were elected by the majority of the winners. I don't care if it wasn't the majority of the people who voted. Who told those just to sit back at home not voting!? If they wanted another government they should have voted!
I am just surprised that PDF people are calling Pakistanis for idiots while claiming to be the only true Pakistanis themselves!!

And no matter what, if people don't want to change then they won't change, and if thats the case here, then thats the case here, although I don't think it is.

Now don't you people feel personally attacked by me, just understand what I am saying and then agree or disagree with me


With Salam and Regards / Shahid

leave Shahid alone guys I think he has a right to his view, without name calling thats childish.

I do think we need a democratic solution in Pakistan. Looking at Zardari and NS in government makes me think twice. but like Plati says look at the history of other countries and you will find that Pakistan is not hte only one that is going through this evloution. I mean didn't the indians recently have a federal Cabinet member convicted of murder!

Things are bad in Pakistan, but not that bad! This is the evolution a (relatively) new country has to through to find its place.

Sure democracy can work. It will take long time. And where it will end? The direction in which it goes, Pakistan will become like Bangladesh, an ethnic democratic state. Pakistan's extra territorial aims and objectives necessarily have to be curtailed. The two cannot go together (unless you have strong, smart, wise president which you dont have anymore). You cannot have false sense of reality, through ideologies that clash with real status, real capabilities and abilities. Otherwise it will tear Pakistan apart like we are seeing. You have west providing you aid, Americans hunt for Islamic terrorists in Pakistan since the democratic 90s, and at the same time Pakistanis regard themselves at the vanguard of Islam and ummah, talking against west, america, russia, india, israel. This is a joke. Pakistanis need to understand it is a poor country with a western system of government divided by ethnic provinces, and cannot lead Muslims. The people dont even have proper understanding of Islam and its principles. Not even the educated people have. They are more interested in protecting their turf. That culture and character exhibits in the politics and political leaders.

For Democracy to take hold, it needs a continuous period without any interruptions from coups, emergencies, martial-laws, dictatorships, etc. Only when people start thinking of democracy as something self-evident, will it also become strong.

In the end, a democracy also facilitates a better economy. In the beginning, a democracy seems to be less efficient than an authoritarian state, because a democracy needs a far longer time to get moving, but once the system is in place, the tempo picks up. For a democracy to succeed, one needs to ensure that the electorate is informed, educated and active. That is a very difficult and time-consuming process. It takes many decades for the electorate to become sufficiently mature so as to influence the political decision-making process properly. Creating a system of management and a system of laws using input of so many citizens cannot be done in a jiffy. However a system build-up democratically is more stable and every citizen thinks of himself as a stake-holder.

Pakistanis needs a lot of patience with democracy. There are no short-cuts and quick-solutions.

We had a decade of DEMOCASHY in the 1990's, where did it lead us.

We were bankrupt with foreign reserve sufficient to cover 2 weeks of import.

Why does the army always interfere in Pakistan politics, this is the only way to stop the country from collapsing.

Here is a question for all those advocating democracy in Pakistan, please tell me of one (yes you only need to give one single example from the entire history of mankind) of a peasant society such as Pakistan being transformed to a industrialised country while it was a democracy

I LOVE PAKISTAN

BUT

OUR COUNTRY FUTUER IS VERY BAD

NOW ALLAHA HI HAFIZ HAY..........

Shaid, we got nothing against you bro but with your views on Democracy and Zardari your defending the undefendable.

Anyway, now you have the beloved democracy you cherish, just watch and you will see for yourself what we are all crying about.

A very good point, not once do we see such an example.

Best for a country is proper democracy. Unfortunately, proper democracy cannot come when people who rule are not equals (people from masses) but are unequal (Rich and powerful, landlords, Jageerdars, Vaderas, Industrialists, Gundas, Sardars, Tribal elders, etc).

Democracy is not everything neither democracy is just election. Democracy is way of electing/selecting people to govern the country for the betterment of the masses irrespective of their race, colour, religion, sects or cast. Democracy is one way government is formed, but there are many ways, including dictatorship and monarchy. Purpose of every government should be betterment of people and same method of forming government is not answer or solution for all conditions. In one condition (where country is feudal, tribal, poor and uneducated), only a good dictator from amongst the people can change things and bring good for the people. But if country is educated, not tribal, people are not dependent for their livelihood on land, than democracy is better. A country needs good dictatorial rule (or good monarchy) to get to an economical state where democracy can come and flourish, else country would keep getting thugs and crooks in the name of democracy forever. This change to democracy happened in almost all world countries where democracy is flourishing and is not sham democracy (like India and Pakistan) where people are not served by so-called democratic forces but are exploited by them.

Democracy does not bring equality but brings equal opportunity. Equality comes with communism (at least in theory). For democratic forces to give equal opportunity, they have to be equals (from the masses ... working class with economical standing like masses) and should see that their party is also open to all, giving equal opportunity to all, from within and outside the party. In sham democracy this does not happen as crooks and thugs use sham democracy to do family business of looting and plundering the country.

If one wants to see the inequality of people in Pakistani democracy, one can see that in PPP where workers who spent their entire life working and struggling for PPP, even people like Amin Fahim who struggled throughout for PPP, helped Z A Bhutto into politics, even declined Prime Minister slot in 2002 for party, is parliamentary leader of PPP, still he is not equal to Zardari or even Bilawal Zardari who did not even spent a single day struggling for PPP. Fact is that PPP is family business formed to rule and plunder the country. Same is true about PMLN and other parties, including Jamaet-e-Islami and other religious parties. When women reserved seats were announced by President Musharraf, Qazi Hussain Ahmed used that opportunity to get his wife and daughter into Assembly on women reserved seats. All religious parties did the same, got in their wife and daughters on women reserved seats, as all believe that their party is family business. Thus, this is called Pakistani democracy ... a family business for looting, plundering and making fool of masses. Only thing we can expect from such sham democracy is economical bankruptcy, increasing misery, and destruction of country.

If anyone is expecting any good from these thugs, than I am sorry as that would be expecting impossible. It is not like military general who in the end come from equals and may give what one can expect from equals, not like people who are running family business in the name of democracy to fool masses. Dictators do not leave legacy and today we do not have son or daughter of Musharraf running for Presidency. Similarly, Ayub Khan, Yahya-Khan or Zia-ul-Haq, none left sons and daughters as head of political party, running for President or Prime Minister Posts. I think that all four Generals who ruled Pakistan tried betterment of people (according to their ability) what Pakistanis could expect from democracy, some (like Musharraf) were more successfully than others.

Very Well Said!

Like I said somewhere, this is a vicious circle, which needs to be anhiled or the next of kins will be forever decending like vultures on a corpse!