I have noticed a lot of people calling the Pakistanis collective names such as stupid, idiotic, etc on this forum...
You can doubt the decisions that Pakistanis make; you cannot doubt their intentions...
Most Pakistanis want what is best for Pakistan... We all want the same...
I do not think such attitudes should be acceptable... Aap leaders ko jo marzi kahen; Pakistanis ko as a group, you cannot abuse...
I will be enforcing that as a policy...
Please note that at the beginning of 2000, most Pakistanis were united behind Musharraf... We need to understand what happened in the time since then... While people abroad may only read about what is happening...
Pakistanis in Pakistan have lived through it and they have experienced how things are happening first hand...
Full Version: Attitudes
Pakistani Defence Forum > Pakistan's National Security > Pakistani Military & Strategic Discussion Forum
Spot on PZ. Lately I've also noticed the same hostility in some peoples reactions. It's totally unacceptable that some members resort to abuse due to conflicting opinions. Good policy!
QUOTE(pakistanzindabaad @ Aug 20 2008, 02:06 AM) 
I have noticed a lot of people calling the Pakistanis collective names such as stupid, idiotic, etc on this forum...
You can doubt the decisions that Pakistanis make; you cannot doubt their intentions...
Most Pakistanis want what is best for Pakistan... We all want the same...
I do not think such attitudes should be acceptable... Aap leaders ko jo marzi kahen; Pakistanis ko as a group, you cannot abuse...
I will be enforcing that as a policy...
Please note that at the beginning of 2000, most Pakistanis were united behind Musharraf... We need to understand what happened in the time since then... While people abroad may only read about what is happening...
Pakistanis in Pakistan have lived through it and they have experienced how things are happening first hand...
You can doubt the decisions that Pakistanis make; you cannot doubt their intentions...
Most Pakistanis want what is best for Pakistan... We all want the same...
I do not think such attitudes should be acceptable... Aap leaders ko jo marzi kahen; Pakistanis ko as a group, you cannot abuse...
I will be enforcing that as a policy...
Please note that at the beginning of 2000, most Pakistanis were united behind Musharraf... We need to understand what happened in the time since then... While people abroad may only read about what is happening...
Pakistanis in Pakistan have lived through it and they have experienced how things are happening first hand...
Good step for 'freedom of speech'.
So people who live outside of Pakistan should not make comments?
If one starts calling their own mother ugly, then who is to disagree with them????
QUOTE(smegster @ Aug 20 2008, 03:19 PM)
Good step for 'freedom of speech'.
So people who live outside of Pakistan should not make comments?
So people who live outside of Pakistan should not make comments?
They should...
Lekin calling Pakistani as a whole as idiots or any other derogatory term is not acceptable...
Firstly this ought to be int he suggestion forum i reckon, it sounds like that kind of topic. What do you think?
Secondly, fair enough you guys living in Pakistan are "experiencing things" first hand, but often you have a tunnel vision approach.
for example, you guys don't seem to realise that inflation has affected everyone. In the UK the price of most things has doubled over the last decade. In Pakistan this process has been slowed down through subsidies which aer now removed. We pay twice as much for rice, for bread, for fuel, for fruit and veg even. I accept that as a consequence more people in Pakistan will be dragged below the poverty line, but you guys make it seem like a localised phenomena.
Another example is draconian anti terror laws. Hundreds of people in the UK are under house arrest or being spied on as we speak, including MP's and Lords. police are raiding peoples home on bad information and they shot dead that Brazilian guy thinking he was a Muslim. We have only had 1 terrorist attack, counter that with the number in Pakistan and the security measures taken. I'm sure not everyone taken in the night by the ISI will be guilty, but you can be sure not everyone will be innocent either. In the UK it is widely accepted they'll take that risk for the greater security. You lot made it sound like your all enslaved by the pharaoh and he's got you building pyramids.
You guys might have first hand experience, but often it is limited to Pakistan. You cannot say you are authorities on subjects simply due to location, you don't know exactly what it's like outside of Pakistan, and those of us outside cannot say exactly what it is like inside Pakistan. You have to accept that your perspective is a localised perspective, that does not mean it is garunteed to be the correct one all the time.
Furthermore I'd like to add that it's hardly insulting to suggest that people within Pakistan are uneducated, we do have a lot of uneducated people, and we do have a tendency to jump on conspiracy theories. People from Pakistan have a tendency to think they know everything about Pakistani politics because they spend so much time talking about it, it's the national sport. What you have to distinguish is how often are people talking about politics and how often are they talking about conspiracies and rumours?
Mind you i totally agree, you can't call them all idiots...
Secondly, fair enough you guys living in Pakistan are "experiencing things" first hand, but often you have a tunnel vision approach.
for example, you guys don't seem to realise that inflation has affected everyone. In the UK the price of most things has doubled over the last decade. In Pakistan this process has been slowed down through subsidies which aer now removed. We pay twice as much for rice, for bread, for fuel, for fruit and veg even. I accept that as a consequence more people in Pakistan will be dragged below the poverty line, but you guys make it seem like a localised phenomena.
Another example is draconian anti terror laws. Hundreds of people in the UK are under house arrest or being spied on as we speak, including MP's and Lords. police are raiding peoples home on bad information and they shot dead that Brazilian guy thinking he was a Muslim. We have only had 1 terrorist attack, counter that with the number in Pakistan and the security measures taken. I'm sure not everyone taken in the night by the ISI will be guilty, but you can be sure not everyone will be innocent either. In the UK it is widely accepted they'll take that risk for the greater security. You lot made it sound like your all enslaved by the pharaoh and he's got you building pyramids.
You guys might have first hand experience, but often it is limited to Pakistan. You cannot say you are authorities on subjects simply due to location, you don't know exactly what it's like outside of Pakistan, and those of us outside cannot say exactly what it is like inside Pakistan. You have to accept that your perspective is a localised perspective, that does not mean it is garunteed to be the correct one all the time.
Furthermore I'd like to add that it's hardly insulting to suggest that people within Pakistan are uneducated, we do have a lot of uneducated people, and we do have a tendency to jump on conspiracy theories. People from Pakistan have a tendency to think they know everything about Pakistani politics because they spend so much time talking about it, it's the national sport. What you have to distinguish is how often are people talking about politics and how often are they talking about conspiracies and rumours?
Mind you i totally agree, you can't call them all idiots...
QUOTE(platinum786 @ Aug 20 2008, 01:43 PM)
Furthermore I'd like to add that it's hardly insulting to suggest that people within Pakistan are uneducated, we do have a lot of uneducated people, and we do have a tendency to jump on conspiracy theories. People from Pakistan have a tendency to think they know everything about Pakistani politics because they spend so much time talking about it, it's the national sport. What you have to distinguish is how often are people talking about politics and how often are they talking about conspiracies and rumours?
Mind you i totally agree, you can't call them all idiots...
Mind you i totally agree, you can't call them all idiots...
I totally agree with this .... and it is a fact that the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis are uneducated .... and illeterate .... which translates to "Jahil" in Urdu ...
pointing this out is not a crime ...
I am also in favor of not calling Pakistanis 'idiots'. I am sure one can make one's point, without sounding humiliating to others.
Spot on Palti. 
So what's wrong with calling them "Jahil" it's a fact.
So what's wrong with calling them "Jahil" it's a fact.
You have to draw the line.
People using terms as "Jahil Pakistani kaum" etc are stepping over it.
People suggesting that the merits of democracy are over shadowed by the fact the people with the ballots are overwhelmingly uneducated... now that is different.
People using terms as "Jahil Pakistani kaum" etc are stepping over it.
People suggesting that the merits of democracy are over shadowed by the fact the people with the ballots are overwhelmingly uneducated... now that is different.
Problem is that 'even though mentioning facts and listening facts can bring changes amongst sensible people if taken positively, it is hard for many people to accept bad facts about them as they do not want to change or take things positively, so they do not even accept that such bad facts about them exists'. Hence they try to curb others mentioning it and excuse is that we are on ground in Pakistan so we know more, but in reality, with narrow visions, they know very little and most are misguided.
Just for an example (I am using one where I can show ignorance of many Pakistanis and give reference to prove it too), even PZ has mentioned in many posts that Pakistan political government (Chaudhries in power) that came after 2002 was very corrupt, rather as corrupt as NS and BB government. Many on this forum may pick up Quran and vouch that it is true that Chaudharies in power were as corrupt as NS and BB. Even many corrupt Journalists wrote in Pakistani newspapers that corruption level was high during political government under President Musharraf. But is it fact? Only a person with open and intelligent mind with ability to read figures, having access to neutral scientifically obtained data and accepting those data without living in his own 'little circle of denial' would know that it is not fact ... How?
Because, Transparency Pakistan (branch of Transparency International that operate from Pakistan) conducted two extensive exercise collecting data of corruption in Pakistan, one in 2002 and other in 2006. According to that data, corruption in 2002-06 did not increased very substantially (though did increased) from what it was in 1999-02. Further, they also found that corruption in 1999-02 was almost negligible compared to both Nawaz and BeNazir period. That means, throughout from 1999-06, corruption was very low in Pakistan compared to periods of Thug Nawaz and corrupt BeNazir (transparency also came with data that corrupt periods of both NS and BB were close in comparison to each other)
2002 data shows that if corruption during 1999-02 Musharraf period was 1 than corruption during NS and BB period was 30. Or NS and BB period was 30 times more corrupt than 1999-02 period of Musharraf. 2006 data shows that if corruption during 1999-02 Musharraf period was 1 than 2002-06 Musharraf period was 2. It means that corruption during 2002-06 in comparison to Musharraf first period (1999-02) was twice, but in comparison to NS and BB period, corruption was 15 times less.
For instance: 95 out of 3000 considered period 1999-2002 was more corrupt compared to 2752 out of 3000 who considered NS and BB period (1988-99) was more corrupt or 1 compare to 30 (survey 2002). On the other hand 1308 out of 4000 considered that 1999-2002 was more corrupt compared to 2692 out of 4000 who considered that 2002-06 was more corrupt, or 1 compare to 2 (survey 2006).
Now, some Pakistanis without any knowledge and living in their own little circular manhole would say that 'what Transparency (Pakistan) knows about ground realities in Pakistan'? Without even knowing or realising how transparency collects data? Well, transparency took sample of 4000 people in 2006 (3000 people in 2002) from amongst people living in all four provinces of Pakistan in proportion, from all income group in proportion, from each religious group in proportion, from different age group (in proportion), etc ... and then found out their opinion ... nay ... not only opinion but their actually life experience, than came with figures in most scientific way.
Now, report by transparency more correct or those posting here and commenting with their own whim and their information coming from their own circle of few, giving opinion that could be mostly bias and possibly lies? Well, fact is obvious that transparency data is more accurate and if a person makes his opinion from those data would be more near to truth regardless of where he lives than those living in Pakistan and making own opinion.
Worse is that, taking advantage of Pakistanis ignorance, most Newspaper Journalists (on payroll of corrupts), even Wikipedia and some international newspapers started fiddling with transparency report, resulting in transparency to come out with clarification. How sad that people of Pakistan are so ignorant that they could not understand figures and transparency had to come with clarification because people were misinterpreting their figures. Still after clarification, some Pakistanis (even on this forum) preferred to stay ignorant and even those who had access to internet, instead of going to transparency own website that has all the data and reports, kept propagating lies and kept misguiding others. Result is that because of massive ignorance in the country, their propaganda kept winning and spreading.
Now, if some people think that it is bad to call Pakistanis ignorant, or whatever, than why? Is it because to stay ignorant is fine and to be called ignorant is bad? It is not pleasure to call Pakistanis as ignorant and religiously misguided as retards and goats, but one says that with great pain, as one belong to same group who are Pakistanis. Nevertheless, purpose is not destructive or humiliation but constructive with hope that this state of many Pakistanis would change if mentioned. My say here is that, it is right of most Pakistanis to stay ignorant (or whatever) but do not try to force others not to call spade a spade. If people do not want to be called ignorant, stupid, retards, or whatever, than they should start changing themselves. That is the purpose of mentioning the facts that people change. Actually, making effort to learn and change, keeping mind open, accepting criticism, learning from mistakes, learning when others point out the truth, etc ... is the best a person can do to change towards good.
[For those who may not believe what I wrote, but do not like to stay ignorant, they should spend their time and effort to come out of their ignorance and read reports of transparency. Only thing what I can do is that I can give them transparency site address. If anyone wants to learn about Pakistan (not just corruption during different government in Pakistan), different problems, corruption levels and performances of government institutions in Pakistan, things what ordinary people have to go through in Pakistan, one should read each and every page of what is there in these reports of Transparency. Reports are long and reading is time consuming, but if a person wants to comment anything about Pakistan and not blabber, than they should know the facts mentioned in report. If a person is Pakistani, than he/she should not be loyal to own whim or corrupt political Master they may worship, but should be loyal to facts and Pakistan.
Official Transparency sites:
Complete report 2002:
http://www.transparency.org.pk/documents/csr.pdf
Complete report 2006:
http://www.transparency.org.pk/documents/N...rvey%202006.pdf
Clarification transparency has to come out with because Journalists were misinterpretation it to misguide Pakistanis (even transparency needed to come with clarification for ignorant of Pakistan, how sad):
http://www.transparency.org.pk/PressReleas...2022%20Sept.doc
(This site takes time to open as it is in word document)
Here is official transparency site from where above sites can be reached:
http://www.transparency.org.pk/
In box ‘National corruption perception survey 2006 and 2002’
(8th box from bottom) ]
Just for an example (I am using one where I can show ignorance of many Pakistanis and give reference to prove it too), even PZ has mentioned in many posts that Pakistan political government (Chaudhries in power) that came after 2002 was very corrupt, rather as corrupt as NS and BB government. Many on this forum may pick up Quran and vouch that it is true that Chaudharies in power were as corrupt as NS and BB. Even many corrupt Journalists wrote in Pakistani newspapers that corruption level was high during political government under President Musharraf. But is it fact? Only a person with open and intelligent mind with ability to read figures, having access to neutral scientifically obtained data and accepting those data without living in his own 'little circle of denial' would know that it is not fact ... How?
Because, Transparency Pakistan (branch of Transparency International that operate from Pakistan) conducted two extensive exercise collecting data of corruption in Pakistan, one in 2002 and other in 2006. According to that data, corruption in 2002-06 did not increased very substantially (though did increased) from what it was in 1999-02. Further, they also found that corruption in 1999-02 was almost negligible compared to both Nawaz and BeNazir period. That means, throughout from 1999-06, corruption was very low in Pakistan compared to periods of Thug Nawaz and corrupt BeNazir (transparency also came with data that corrupt periods of both NS and BB were close in comparison to each other)
2002 data shows that if corruption during 1999-02 Musharraf period was 1 than corruption during NS and BB period was 30. Or NS and BB period was 30 times more corrupt than 1999-02 period of Musharraf. 2006 data shows that if corruption during 1999-02 Musharraf period was 1 than 2002-06 Musharraf period was 2. It means that corruption during 2002-06 in comparison to Musharraf first period (1999-02) was twice, but in comparison to NS and BB period, corruption was 15 times less.
For instance: 95 out of 3000 considered period 1999-2002 was more corrupt compared to 2752 out of 3000 who considered NS and BB period (1988-99) was more corrupt or 1 compare to 30 (survey 2002). On the other hand 1308 out of 4000 considered that 1999-2002 was more corrupt compared to 2692 out of 4000 who considered that 2002-06 was more corrupt, or 1 compare to 2 (survey 2006).
Now, some Pakistanis without any knowledge and living in their own little circular manhole would say that 'what Transparency (Pakistan) knows about ground realities in Pakistan'? Without even knowing or realising how transparency collects data? Well, transparency took sample of 4000 people in 2006 (3000 people in 2002) from amongst people living in all four provinces of Pakistan in proportion, from all income group in proportion, from each religious group in proportion, from different age group (in proportion), etc ... and then found out their opinion ... nay ... not only opinion but their actually life experience, than came with figures in most scientific way.
Now, report by transparency more correct or those posting here and commenting with their own whim and their information coming from their own circle of few, giving opinion that could be mostly bias and possibly lies? Well, fact is obvious that transparency data is more accurate and if a person makes his opinion from those data would be more near to truth regardless of where he lives than those living in Pakistan and making own opinion.
Worse is that, taking advantage of Pakistanis ignorance, most Newspaper Journalists (on payroll of corrupts), even Wikipedia and some international newspapers started fiddling with transparency report, resulting in transparency to come out with clarification. How sad that people of Pakistan are so ignorant that they could not understand figures and transparency had to come with clarification because people were misinterpreting their figures. Still after clarification, some Pakistanis (even on this forum) preferred to stay ignorant and even those who had access to internet, instead of going to transparency own website that has all the data and reports, kept propagating lies and kept misguiding others. Result is that because of massive ignorance in the country, their propaganda kept winning and spreading.
Now, if some people think that it is bad to call Pakistanis ignorant, or whatever, than why? Is it because to stay ignorant is fine and to be called ignorant is bad? It is not pleasure to call Pakistanis as ignorant and religiously misguided as retards and goats, but one says that with great pain, as one belong to same group who are Pakistanis. Nevertheless, purpose is not destructive or humiliation but constructive with hope that this state of many Pakistanis would change if mentioned. My say here is that, it is right of most Pakistanis to stay ignorant (or whatever) but do not try to force others not to call spade a spade. If people do not want to be called ignorant, stupid, retards, or whatever, than they should start changing themselves. That is the purpose of mentioning the facts that people change. Actually, making effort to learn and change, keeping mind open, accepting criticism, learning from mistakes, learning when others point out the truth, etc ... is the best a person can do to change towards good.
[For those who may not believe what I wrote, but do not like to stay ignorant, they should spend their time and effort to come out of their ignorance and read reports of transparency. Only thing what I can do is that I can give them transparency site address. If anyone wants to learn about Pakistan (not just corruption during different government in Pakistan), different problems, corruption levels and performances of government institutions in Pakistan, things what ordinary people have to go through in Pakistan, one should read each and every page of what is there in these reports of Transparency. Reports are long and reading is time consuming, but if a person wants to comment anything about Pakistan and not blabber, than they should know the facts mentioned in report. If a person is Pakistani, than he/she should not be loyal to own whim or corrupt political Master they may worship, but should be loyal to facts and Pakistan.
Official Transparency sites:
Complete report 2002:
http://www.transparency.org.pk/documents/csr.pdf
Complete report 2006:
http://www.transparency.org.pk/documents/N...rvey%202006.pdf
Clarification transparency has to come out with because Journalists were misinterpretation it to misguide Pakistanis (even transparency needed to come with clarification for ignorant of Pakistan, how sad):
http://www.transparency.org.pk/PressReleas...2022%20Sept.doc
(This site takes time to open as it is in word document)
Here is official transparency site from where above sites can be reached:
http://www.transparency.org.pk/
In box ‘National corruption perception survey 2006 and 2002’
(8th box from bottom) ]
QUOTE
Firstly this ought to be int he suggestion forum i reckon, it sounds like that kind of topic. What do you think?
Wanted to make sure everyone got a chance to read this before I started implementing it... Fair warning to dain naa...
Will move this to the suggestions forum in a while...
Salim bhayi aap ki sirf lines count ker key merey sar main dard ho jati hay; I really wonder how you find the time to write all of this...
The topic is not a political statement...
Its a simple warning that I am a proud Pakistani and I do not like anyone saying that we're collectively stupid when we sure as hell are not...
When people say "jahil qoum"; you're simply saying more about yourself personally than about anyone else... Akal kerain; for God's sake...
I agree with everything that Plat has mentioned. The thing to realize is that a people within a society are a collective singular. Their actions as a whole cannot be compounded unto one individual or groups because in a society everyone has a part to play. The woes of a society do not limit themselves to those affected directly, because indirectly it affects everyone and everybody is partially responsible for that. For example, the majority of Pakistan's population is uneducated. Now, this does not simply reflect on the percentage of people that are uneducated but also on those who were educated because they did not contribute in educating those that were not.
The educated people are also indirectly affected in a number of ways. So it is very easy to try and deflect generalized statements towards one's group, but fact of the matter is that you need to man up and accept that you have a part to play in that generalization and that generalization is very appropriate.
Most people living abroad are also directly affected by that which goes on in Pakistan. A lot of them visit the country regularly and are in contact with members of their family. People from a different cultural experience and background and knowledge base always contribute to a discussion and will broaden horizons more than the people in a homogenized situation.
The educated people are also indirectly affected in a number of ways. So it is very easy to try and deflect generalized statements towards one's group, but fact of the matter is that you need to man up and accept that you have a part to play in that generalization and that generalization is very appropriate.
Most people living abroad are also directly affected by that which goes on in Pakistan. A lot of them visit the country regularly and are in contact with members of their family. People from a different cultural experience and background and knowledge base always contribute to a discussion and will broaden horizons more than the people in a homogenized situation.
Despite everything I said, I still agree with the content of the topic, we all sometimes do go over the top, myself included.
There is also something else to remember, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
How often have we read some angry person write "I hope this naliak quom gets robbed blind, they deserve it".
You never know the moment Allah might accept your prayers, make it a good one.
There is also something else to remember, be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
How often have we read some angry person write "I hope this naliak quom gets robbed blind, they deserve it".
You never know the moment Allah might accept your prayers, make it a good one.
PZ once a wise man said,
Democracy is a device which assures that we shall be govern no batter than we deserve.
All the leaders to this date are the juice of our national attitude and thinking which goes in the mind of masses.
Habib Jalib, one of the great thinker and poet call Pakistanis "Ghaday" there is a good reason for it.
why we vote the family owned gang parties? why we not elect the common man? why? why we distribute sweets on the departure of one leader after the other?
how long this cat and mouse game will continue? why do not we talk substances, issues instead of personalities, heroes and villains?
Democracy is a device which assures that we shall be govern no batter than we deserve.
All the leaders to this date are the juice of our national attitude and thinking which goes in the mind of masses.
Habib Jalib, one of the great thinker and poet call Pakistanis "Ghaday" there is a good reason for it.
why we vote the family owned gang parties? why we not elect the common man? why? why we distribute sweets on the departure of one leader after the other?
how long this cat and mouse game will continue? why do not we talk substances, issues instead of personalities, heroes and villains?
Please visit this link and watch the video and listen to the peom
http://pakistanidefenceforum.com//index.php?showtopic=77687
http://pakistanidefenceforum.com//index.php?showtopic=77687
QUOTE(pakistanzindabaad @ Aug 20 2008, 01:06 PM)
You can doubt the decisions that Pakistanis make; you cannot doubt their intentions...
The path to hell is paved with good intentions...
Do you really want Pakistan to go to hell?
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